Why tower speakers? (1 Viewer)

[Adam.Gonsman]

Craig,
It's a LOT to deal with. And then those of us who already are established with our systems and all have sound we like, think everyone in the world should jump on board with us (mysef included) and start pointing out things that don't always agree with each other and there you are left watching us argue.

If it were me, (and again, all I can say is what I would do in your shoes) I think I'd be heading very hard for option 2. It's been discussed time and again here on the forum that the speakers are probably the single most important investment you can make in your system. A good pair of speakers can last you well over 10 and 15 years. In that time, receivers will come and go many times as new sound formats and other technology do the same.

Will your Sony receiver do justice to any of those beautiful speakers? Definately not. Is one month of waiting a small price to pay to be able to opt for the OM-7's? Yeah it really is in my opinion.

You sounded in your last post like the OM-7's were really where you wanted to be. If that's the case, go for them. There will be lots of time to catch up the rest of the system.

 

[Greg Kolinski]

I still use my 12 year old Acoustic Research TSW 510's for my front channels,and are very happy with them.I really do believe anything in my price range that I could buy now would be a downgrade.Sound great in HT,and wonderfull for 2 channel listening

 

[Jim_P]

Craig:

It would be helpful if you could provide us additional information.

1. What size room will this system be installed in?
2. Do you desire a system that is oversized to accomodate a larger room and if so, how large a room?
3. Do you want a modest, moderate or great guns system?
3.5 It's O.K. to buy it piecemeal, but you really should have some total budget that you really don't want to go beyond. I suspect most of the people on this forum, including myself, found themselves spending a lot more than they ever intended to.
4. What time frame do you want your new system to cover. Big difference if you want something to carry you 5 years and then replace it as circumstances change versus a 20 years system.
5. What are you using as a monitor/tv and what are your plans for the future. It makes more sense to keep audio and video somewhat in synch. For example, a $5,000 set of speakers with a $500 TV doesn't make sense. So when you are looking at an expensive gadget, be thinking about all the other gadgets that should also be upgraded or at what level you wish to stop at.
6. Would you consider yourself a home theater hobbiest who will probably change something every few months, or do want to get a system and then leave it alone for the forseeable future?

Craig, I'm sure I've got other questions that depend on your answers to the above.

Adam: No offense taken. I just think not everybody is as crazy about home theater as I am and think that their circumstances and interest could point them in a different direction that many of us have taken.

 

[Adam.Gonsman]

Jim: LOL!! You mean we're not all addicted? Hmmm....maybe I do have a problem...(wanders off to call Betty Ford Clinic)

That is a good set of questions to ask. No argument here. I guess maybe I assume too much some times.

 

[Jim_P]

Adam:

Betty Ford, hum, not a bad idea.

Could you hear the support group,

My name is (insert your name). I'm a Home Theater addict and I've not tweaked out convergence screen or gray scale in 36 hours. Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrgh.

jim

 

[Craig_O]

My room is approx 16'x23'x9'. Most of my equipment is around 5-6 years old so this is probably the time frame in which I would want to upgrade in the future. I will probably buy a new piece of equipment every few months starting with either a subwoofer or front mains(I've already purchased the center speaker), next would be the receiver, then surrounds and then finish with the tv. Since tv's are still changing every few months I figured I'd upgrade it the last with early next year being my time frame to purchase. If I went went with a good pair of front speakers, I don't really want to exceed $2.5k. So since I have the Bose as the fronts and base box what would be the best to upgrade first, mains or subwoofer with the next piece being purchased in the middle of March.

 

[Jim_P]

Am I correct to assume that you TV is along the 16' wall and your primary viewing/listening position is about 16' away from it along the 23'wall?


I'm not that familiar with the speakers you suggested, so I went out and read up on them. I don't really think the Omni 60s will be powerful enough for the size room you have. The OM 7 and OM 9 both have the omni directional feature that sounds a lot like bipolar. I've got a pair of bipolars that I use as rear effect speakers. They work well in that capacity but would be difficult to place as mains. I would not recommend them as mains for that reason. Are there some others that are direct radiators that you are interested in??

When you go this weekend to check on speakers, be careful to not make a decision based on near field testing, that is standing just a few feet away from them. You really need to be about the same distance as you would be at home.

 

[Brian Schucher]

What the Omnipolar speakers give you is a HUGE soundstage at the cost of precise imaging. I have a pair of OM6s with the C2 center and two pair of OMR2 surrounds. I personally like my system very much. Im pushing it with 200w/chx7. I have recently considered moving to direct radiators though. I have had these Omnis for a few years and feel its time to try something else...

 

[Jim_P]

Hi Brian:

Just querious, how close do you have to have the omnipolars to a wall in order to have a large sound stage?? My Def Techs 2006s, which are bipolars are good at about 7 inches away from a wall. Further away and the rear radiating drivers don't do much good. In my application, and for esthetics, I have to have my rear effect speakers against the back wall so bipolars work pretty well. ... and for rear effects the slightly directional slightly diffused sound larger sound stage works well.for me (and they look cool as heck on those short pedistals) As front mains, I wouldn't be able to position them close enough to a wall for the rear drivers to produce much usable sound and therefore only rely on a single tweeter and midrange on the front to provide the sound. Just not enough in a large room. I've had often wondered if mounting some kind of device directly behind the rear firing drivers at the optimum 7" to reflect the sound forward would give you the best of both worlds. A larger sound stage with no reliance on walls to bounce the sound forward. Then you could put them anywhere you want. I guess by the time you've done that, you mind as well have gotten speakers that are dipolar in design and have been done with it. Well these are my thoughts why bipolar and by extention omnipolar speakers don't seem like the best choice for front mains.

 

[Adam.Gonsman]

Jim,
Mirage recommends that the OM series towers be at least 15 inches from the wall behind them (mine are pretty close to 24) and about 18 inches from the wall to the side of them. Given room to "breathe" like that though, these speakers will provide a HUGE soundstage for theater. Likewise, I have never had my OM-10's in a room where I could get them too far away from the wall. This includes one apartment when I was in college where they were in a room that was about 20x30 and they were almost 3 feet from the wall in any direction. Given enough power, they just seem to keep opening up further and further. Also, their stereo imaging (like for music) is a lot cleaner than you'd expect from a "normal" bipolar speaker. Mirage has put tons of R&D into their Omnipolar lines of speakers. They feel so strongly about them that they have a new flagship due out in a year or two (can't find the press release now). The OM-1's will retail for $25k/pair and will make use of all the same Omnipolar principals as the other OM's.

These speakers are meant to be mains. They tend not to be that hard to place as long as you give them enough room. They provide a very distinctive sound compared to direct radiators though. Some people like it, some don't. That will never change. In fact it's not far from a holy war in the furver with which most debate it.

Craig said in a an earlier post that he fell in love with the 9's so I'm assuming he likes the sound they give. Maybe he should (if he hasn't) listen to some direct radiators more. After all, anything sounds better than Bose. :wink: If your primary concern is home theater and/or acoustic music, the Omnipolar speakers give an incredable experience unlike anything I've ever heard even far above their price range. (I probably sound like I'm spouting marketing BS at this point!) They tend to be less spectacular when you start talking harder and more amped music like Creed or Metallica but still have no problem running with other speakers in their class.

I know a lot of companies have tried bipolar speakers with varying degrees of succes. I also know that a lot of listeners have tried various incarnations of bipolar speakers with varying degrees of success. But Mirage (and probaby a couple others) has really made a go of theirs. They've taken them to a level far beyond where most companies gave up long ago. What has resulted is a small group of zealots (like myself) who have tried one of the select few brands like Mirage. Listeners like myself are perhaps a little more late to the game and have not had all the horrors of older attemps and hype over bipolar speakers. But I'd recommend to anyone who hasn't listened to Mirage in the last 4 years or so, to do so before they blanket judge what bipolar speakers can can be like.

Craig,
I'll second Jim about the 60's not having what it takes for a room that size. I'll also second what he said about making sure you're far enough away when you demo in the store.

It sounds like you're already set to upgrade in a piecemeal fashion so I'm I'm going to suggest that at least to some degree you still opt for "better" over "now". In that same respect though, if you think you'll be replacing some or all of this stuff in 5 years (seriously, that may change when you get away from Bose), you may want to opt for the 9's instead of the 7's. That's ~$600 less to "throw away" later. Actually, the difference in price would probably almost get you some nice surrounds. I think OM-R2's retail for about $600 a pair, you could probably negotiate that down to the price difference between the 9's and 7's. I got mine for $350 as floor models. Then you'd have a full complete surround package now, and next month you can get that 45tx to really do some justice to the setup. Lots of choices. You do at least have the advantage of not needing everything at once to have a full system. That sony reciever is not too hot a model, but I really think that would be towards the end of the sound upgrades for me. I would worry about speakers first.

(bell dings signaling round 3 for Jim and I)

LOL! Just kidding Jim. This is fun. It's not often on here that anyone gets to debate without one memeber chewing the other's head off or resulting to name calling.

 

[Jim_P]

Adam:

Excellant post. I like intelligent information such as you provided. Personal taste should also play a significant roll in the selection process, so, it would be in Craig's best interest to listen and compare omnipolar and direct radiator and weigh the pros and cons. Since he already owns their center channel, he would probably do well to stay within their product line for sonic reasons. I would also be a bit concerned about having too wide a sound stage from front mains and loosing localization as where the sound should be coming from.

Craig: Help. On one of your post you said that the budget for the front mains was 1.5 and in another post the budget was 2.5 which I didn't understand if you meant to include amp or somehthing else. OR did our tax refund come in?

 

[Brian Schucher]

The OMR2s I think work most excellent as sides and rears. Seeing as most reccomend dipole sides and monopole rears.. these speaks have no null area. They have a driver where the null would be on standard bi-dipoles. To me this works great for both HT and Multichannel music applications...

 

[Adam.Gonsman]

I would also be a bit concerned about having too wide a sound stage from front mains and loosing localization as where the sound should be coming from.

This was a concern of mine too when I first became interested in the Mirage speakers. I'm pretty hard to please for my speakers as I listen to a very wide range of music, a lot of rock as well as a lot of new age (don't worry, I mean real new age, not Yanni ) and classical. For the new age and classical, I don't think I could ever go back to direct radiating speakers. The rock is average. Allowing for the different sound properties of direct radiating and bipolar, both have their merits and I don't think one is necessarily better than the other within this same price range.

In theater, imaging stays pretty strong with the center channel in play. Effects that are extreme to one side or the other are localizable on their own and as they move toward the middle, the center channel (which is considered omnipolar in this case too but is not nearly as much as the towers in actual practice) really pulls the image in tight where it should be.

Another thing is how far out from he wall they are. Mirage says minimum 15 inches, and that I think holds pretty true. The farther out they are after that is partly personal taste and partly how large a room you have and how large a sweet spot you're trying for.

Also, I've found that in order to "enhance" stereo imaging that I personally like the sound of my OM-10's when they are a little farther apart than the general rule says for distance from listener.

The other thing I've found since I moved to a real receiver (I was using a Sony STR-DB930 till a couple weeks ago, now a Yamaha RX-V3300) is that with DTS:NEO set to music, it really tightens up the imaging with the center channel in play and yet still provides a very open stage for the music. It's sort of the best of both worlds. That of course depends on how you feel about DTS:NEO or DPLII for music listening. I know a lot of people don't care for it.

 

[Adam.Gonsman]

Brian,
I'll second that on the OM-R2's. I think the key is that they really do function like half of an omnipolar speaker and radiate in a true hemisphere rather than just in oppostie directions along the wall unlike many other di/bi-pole surrounds. Like you said, this eliminates the dead space.

It might also bear mentioning for others following this thread who aren't familiar with "Omnipolar" that this is the difference between "normal" bipolar speakers and Mirage's so called omnipolar speakers. The Mirages radiate in a very nearly perfect spherical pattern from each speaker. In the newer, more budget conscious models, this is accomplished by making the drivers fire along an almost vertical access so the sound disperses equally in all directions from the speaker. The OM towers though take a different and much more brute force approach. They appear to be traditional bipoles in that they have drivers mounted to fire in opposite directions in phase. But mirage has taken another step to mount the opposite speakers very close to each other. My OM-10's, the faces of the drives are only about 6 and 7 inches apart (tweeters and woofers respectviely). This gives the effect of both drivers radiating from almost the same point. Combined with wide dispersion drivers, there is really no dead area on the speaker.

Again, I feel like I'm spouting marketing BS for Mirage. I don't work for them or sell their speakers, but after owning them for a number of years, I'm a believer in most of their rhetoric.

I'm actually thinking about trying to move my R2's to the front effects channels on my Yamaha when my budget allows for me to get some OM-5's or 7's for mains and move my 10's to surrounds. Course there's that pesky need for a C2 so I can make my C3 my rear center...Uh oh....I better go call Betty Ford again. I think I've already relapsed with my addiction.

 

[Jim_P]

Hey Adam:

Do you sometimes feel like you should open up a home theater store just to be able to play with all the toys?

My girlfriend suggested that to me a few weeks ago. lol

By the way, I think I must have misplaced the number for Betty Ford Clinic. You wouldn't happen to have it laying around?

jim

 

[Adam.Gonsman]

Jim: All the time!! I keep thinking while I'm still unemployed (I'm a software engineer still suffering from the collapse of the IT industry), I should change directions and go try to get a job at the local Tweeter or somewhere like that. Employee discount would sure help a lot too.

I'd love to have my own shop, though. Maybe someday when I'm rich instead of so good looking :wink:

For those like Jim and I, it's http://www.bettyfordcenter.org LOL! Yes, I looked it up!

 

[Craig_O]

Jim,
I initially wanted to only spend around $1.5k for mains but after everybodys great info I figured it would be in my best interest to increase the budget as to avoid the "What if" factor. I didn't want to be second guessing my purchase a month later. Also I have done comparisons of direct and bi-polar speakers, but I keep coming back to the mirages. I had the salesman at my local dealer only turn on the front and center speakers with no surrounds or subwoofer. Adam is correct in that the sound stage Mirage produces is very wide and to me feels like I'm enveloped in sound, which I liked very much. Don't know how to explain it but it feels like I'm inside the movie. So with that it looks like I will start with the OM-7's(next week) and then go from there. Also have to agree about this being a great thread as no bashing has taken place. This was one of my first threads to post as it seems things can get a bit ugly with people going back and forth. I would just like to express how much I appreciate everyones info as it has been taken to heart. Thanks again.

 

[Jim_P]

This has been one of the more fun threads I've seen, well, maybe with the exception of the popcorn thread over at AVS but that's a long story.

It sounds like the Mirage speakers must be pretty good and you should be happy with them. I'll make a point of listening to them the first opportunity I have.

Once you get your system put together, you're going to have to invite Adam and me over to check it out.

Hold it, wait a second, stop the presses. Adam mentioned something about going to work at Tweeter. Maybe he can get us his employee discount on all the components. That could really add up. wow! I've been wanting to upgrade my big screen, this might be just the right opportunity. What do you say Adam????

 

[Adam.Gonsman]

LOL! Even if do go work at Tweeter, I'm afraid shipping that big screen from Pennsyvania to Alabama might outweigh the employee discount by just a little. I'm also afriad if I went to work at Tweeter I'd never get my pay check out of the store. I'd have biggest bitchen home theater of anyone at the homeless shelter.

Keep in touch guys. Craig, you have to let us know how you like your system when you get it on its way. Definately a good thread.