Why is Dialogue mixed so low? (2 Viewers)

[Vince Maskeeper]

After reading all of the above, I still think John's problem has more to do with speaker placement and calibration method. But to figure this out for sure, we need John to chime in on exactly how he calibrated.

Doubtful as he specifically compared dialog sounds to other sounds from his center channel. Bad placement would make all sounds coming from the center muffled- but he made the specific point that he found it displeasing that when he increased center volume, other sounds increased as well.

Sure, calibration and proper placement will help dialog (specifically having proper sub calibration will keep the sub from overshadowing the dialog... and obvioulsy getting the center up to the same level as left/right make a difference)- but if you reread his post he outlined specifically a dislike for how dialog was lower than other sounds in the center channel.

-vince

 

[jeff lam]

It's also quite possible that the sub is too loud. I also had the problem. I found that I thought the overall sound was much to loud and I couldn't head the dialogue when I turned it down. Try watching the movie without the sub and turn it up so you can hear the dialogue well. I'm sure you will find that the main's are not too loud. Therefore it must be your sub. I live in an APT. and subs tend to be loud and you want to turn it down, but just pull back on the sub, when the bass really hits, you shouldn't have a problem hearing it. All this was said assuming you have voice matching main's and center.

 

[Christian Speights]

Hey, maybe he just doesn't hear so good.
http://www.miracleear.com/
(Sorry, couldn't resist)

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Ok Vince, I understand what you've explained, and I think it makes sense. Let me give you an example.

Two men are right in front of the screen, and in the background a tanker truck just blew up. The men know better than to try and talk during the initial explosion - that's a no-brainer, but after a minute the noise quiets down a little, and one guy talks to the other, but you can't hear them.

Ok, I know it's just a movie, but just above their heads there should be a boom mike recording what they are saying. If I were standing with them I'd be able to hear them, but I can't in my HT. Thus, is the dynamic range 'real', or an artificial standard?

Glenn

 

[Kevin Coleman]

Increasing the dialogue in no way would decrease the overall dynamic range of the soundtrack.
Kevin C.

 

[Nick G]

I trust the center is set to "small" so it is not trying to reproduce low frequences at the same time as dialogue? Also there is a common misconception running through this thead that center channel = dialogue only. A good portion (most perhaps?) of what comes from the center is not dialogue, so when you crank up the center level you are also increasing sound effects, music etc as well as the dialogue. Also remember the poster said that when he sets his center to "no", then dilogue is fine. This means dynamic range and mixing is NOT the issue here since that does not change when the center is off. So what does that leave us with as possible reasons for his problem? Center speaker placement, speaker choice and calibration. In one of those three areas lies the solution to his problem.

Nick

Hey, look at that, my 100th post.

 

[Jeremy Anderson]

Doubtful as he specifically compared dialog sounds to other sounds from his center channel. Bad placement would make all sounds coming from the center muffled- but he made the specific point that he found it displeasing that when he increased center volume, other sounds increased as well.

Respectfully, I understand what you're saying, Vince, but I still think it's worth the minimal amount of time it would take to check these things. A center channel with a tweeter that drops off severely when off-axis can cause this. The speaker would still sound clear, but it would lose that upper end of the frequency range that most dialogue falls into. Aiming the speaker down at the listening position can make a big difference for center speakers that don't have wide-dispersion tweeters. It can make other sounds coming from the center channel seem to overpower dialogue.

Also, a center speaker with a poorly handled crossover can cause this same problem. If I recall correctly, early models of HTD's center channels suffered from this problem, but were later modified to use a different crossover point.

Since most sound other than dialogue in the center channel is also being reproduced to some extent in the mains for the sake of directionality, it would be difficult to absolutely pinpoint that dialogue was lower than other sounds in that particular speaker, especially if the level of his mains is too high. Improper time alignment of the center speaker can put the point of greatest reinforcement between channels in a bizarre place, making these inter-channel sounds seem louder than those which are completely isolated in the center. Hell, for all we know he could have his center channel in the cubbyhole of an entertainment center, which would certainly color the sound enough to cause dialogue harshness.

My point is this: We can't rule any of these things out without knowing more about his particular setup, speaker types and calibration methods.

 

[Jeremy Anderson]

Two men are right in front of the screen, and in the background a tanker truck just blew up. The men know better than to try and talk during the initial explosion - that's a no-brainer, but after a minute the noise quiets down a little, and one guy talks to the other, but you can't hear them.

Glenn, in a movie soundtrack, the level of other sounds in comparison to dialogue is up to the person doing the mix. They go to great lengths to ensure that dialogue remains intelligible even with loud sounds coming from the other channels. This is why proper calibration is so important. You're calibrating to match the standards followed by the people doing these sound mixes, so that the balance of your home system will be consistent with that of the systems used by the sound engineers. If your system is properly calibrated (and you don't have any problems with room acoustics or placement), you should hear all of the dialogue that the engineer meant you to hear.

For example... I've heard people whine that during parts of the movie Magnolia, the music drowns out the dialogue. Many people can't understand that you aren't SUPPOSED to hear the dialogue in those scenes, because that's what the director and/or sound engineer intended. My own mother griped about this in the final scene where John C. Reilly is sitting on the bed talking, because you can't hear half of what he's saying. In that scene, what he's saying isn't important, which is why the director and sound engineer didn't mean you to hear it.

However, as Vince said before, sound engineers have a limited range in which to work. Bumping dialogue up in the mix decreases the amount of headroom above and beyond that level that can be used for extremely dynamic scenes. In other words, if you want a 105db explosion to sound truly impressive, you can't very well have dialogue at 95db. You need to have a greater difference between the two. The typical human speaking voice, on average, is right about 75db. Most engineers, to my knowledge, tend to use this as their guideline, giving them 30db above and beyond that point to play with. Vince, you're more experienced in that area, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

You don't want an audio format that allows sounds 25db over dialog level[/I]]Quote:

False. It would not reduce the dynamic range of the FORMAT, but would most likely reduced the utilized range of the soundtrack. It would absolutely reduce the positive dynamic range...
The overall available dynamic range would remain, "the same"- however dynamics in the positive direction would be decreased. The amount that sound could be increased over dialog would be dminished- and since dialog is used as the anchor point of theatrical playback systems, the used positive dynamic range would be reduced.
It would make available an extra 10db below dialog level technically available for use- but this would be ineffective to use, as your ear adjusts to overall level: if dialog average was moved up by 10, your ears would begin to ignore the bottom 10db.
Everything is measured relative to dialog- as it is technically the RMS level of the soundtrack (average level). You only get audible signal so far below your RMS level. By moving up dialog level- you aren't really "gaining" anything below it: the amount of volume your ears will perceive below the RMS stays the same- so moving up the RMS by 10db would mean, essentially, moving up the lowest audible signal by 10.
So increasing dialog by 10db, would mean that the headroom space above RMS level would be reduced and the bottom 10db of currently usable range would go unheard.
The same is true for CDs- granted the CD still has the same available dynamic range overall, they squash the whole signal into the top 6db: utilizing the lower levels available in the format as essentially not usuable.
I assume by your smiley Kevin that you meant this to stir the storm a little- but all it could possibly offer is a confusion of the issue. The increase in dialog level would absolutely result in a reduction in used and usable "dynamic range" in a soundtrack. Certainly the available range would remain the same, but what would be reasonably used would be less.
Hope that makes sense.
-Vince

 

[John DeSantis]

Guess it's time for me to respond. Vince and alot of you guys certainly know more than I do about DD sound engineering, db levels etc. But I need to be clear and give you guys more info. First let me describe my system.

TV RCA HOME THEATRE 35" G35830WK

AV RECEIVER YAMAHA RXV-2095

DVD PLAYER TOSHIBA SD 2300

CD PLAYER YAMAHA CDC-506 [ 5 DISC ]

VHS PLAYER RCA HOME THEATRE SERIES

TAPE, CASSETTE SONY TCRW-535

SPEAKERS

FRONT MAIN AR 312 HO

CENTER AR CS 25 HO

FRONT SUB AR S112 PS 12"

FRONT EFFECT KHL PLATINUM SERIES

REAR SURROUND DESIGN ACOUSTICS PS-CV

REAR SUB DESIGN ACOUSTICS PS-SW 10"

[ PASSIVE ]

Jeremy: I set the sound levels using the RS meter. I positioned it in the listening area and had it pointed almost straight up. I did recently recheck them using the internal test tones. Before that I used Avia. I've tried the center setting at small and large and it doesn't make any difference. I just hear a bit more from the sub when the center is set to small. I had the center atop the TV but moved it down below and angled it upwards. It seems to sound better (not louder) there.

Vince: I am NOT complaining about the explosions etc. being too loud. I do NOT want to reduce the dynamic range. I don't know if it's the makers of the movie or the sound engineer but the Planet/Apes movie dialogue is just too low. Yes, I could turn up the overall volume but the explosions etc. are allready very, very loud... and I do like that. Now, a movie like "Spy who shagged me" has very little loud, low Freq. passages. That movie I can simply turn up the Volume. Someone suggested kicking up the Center to just increase dialogue but as another pointed out there is much more than dialogue coming from it and little would be gained. This IS my point. Why is there more than just dialogue? I think the DD setup is wrong. ( I'll catch hell for that one ) If the movie was made so that just the center had dialogue then we could just kick that up and not really take away from the overall impact that the Director intended. Let's face it. I know I have some hearing loss but my wife complains about not hearing the dialogue also. I would guess we all have a center that is way smaller than our mains. Why does DD send so much sound info to the center? It's the smallest one of the sound stage. As I said, I don't experience this in a Theatre and it's not just because i'm concentrating more. I think it's the way the DVD is made or engineered or whatever. By the way, I have the Dynamic range ( not compression ) setting at MAX because as I said I do like the loud explosions etc. The other settings are STANDARD and MIN which use compression.

 

[Kevin Coleman]

The overall available dynamic range would remain, "the same"-

Exactly what I was saying. There are alot quiter sounds in the soundtrack than the dialogue.
Kevin C.

 

[John Morris]

I agree with almost everyone has said in this thread... i.e., both Vince and Jeremy, yet I keep coming back to my own experience in dealing with this problem. For me, the solution was to get the center channel off of my RPTV and onto a floor stand in front of the TV AND then to calibrate my center to +1 versus my other two front speakers. That solved the problem for me without using Dynamic compression.

 

[Jeremy Anderson]

First of all, NICE SYSTEM. Prepare for my usual lengthy post. Hope the following information helps:

Jeremy: I set the sound levels using the RS meter. I positioned it in the listening area and had it pointed almost straight up. I did recently recheck them using the internal test tones. Before that I used Avia.

I used to calibrate that way too, and it's WRONG WRONG WRONG! Calibrating with the meter straight up in your listening position will throw the whole soundstage off, because your mains and center are at greater off-axis angles from the microphone than the surrounds. The Radio Shack SPL meter's microphone is more directional than most would like to think (because I was actually silly enough to measure the off-axis effect using a laser pointer and protractor). The only way to minimize the effect of this (and calibrate properly) is to aim the meter's microphone so that the angle from each speaker to the microphone itself is roughly the same. This usually means you're pointing the mic about 30 degrees down at roughly the middle of your ceiling, but your room may vary.

Next, you need to follow the calibration instructions on pages 32-34 of your instruction manual TO THE LETTER, most importantly centering all tone controls (which you should anyway) and turning off the bass extension switch (which boosts the 50-70Hz range by 7db and should NOT be used). This is true whether you're using the internal tones or Avia to calibrate. If you don't have your manual handy, it's available on Yamaha's website in PDF format. One important thing to note here is that the tone controls on your receiver only modify the mains, not the center, surrounds or front effect speakers. For DD/DTS material, you should definitely bypass this or leave both controls at zero. Also, I would -NOT- use the front effect speakers when listening to DD or DTS material. It adds processing to the signal that should not be there, especially when you consider that many soundtracks on DVD are now pre-processed for near-field environments. This feature is great for DSP modes and music as well as television, but shouldn't be used for proper reproduction of digital soundtracks.

You are correct to use the MAX setting for compression, as (per the manual) it does not alter the original dynamic range of the soundtrack. However, this could not be the problem anyway, since you're likely listening to the movie in question (Planet of the Apes) in DTS, for which the compression setting does not apply anyway (since the DTS format does not contain the dynamic range compensation data like DD does).

Many people mistakenly think that the center channel is for dialogue only. This is not so AT ALL. The center channel is to focus your attention at the screen in a theater (or your home) and so that directional effects (whether in the mains or surrounds) are that much more prominent when they occur. It anchors the attention of the viewer ON THE SCREEN. Because of this, 50-70% of a movie's sound is usually reproduced in the center channel. This is why you'll hear people say that the center speaker is the one you should spend the most money on, because it absolutely MUST perform beyond your mains and surrounds by its very purpose for the DD and DTS formats. In an actual theater, you will NEVER to my knowledge see a center speaker setup that is smaller than the mains. In fact, all of the theaters here in my town have either larger center arrays than the mains or identical ones. Also, if you could just manually adjust the dialogue level yourself independant of the rest of the soundtrack, you would be negating the hard work of the sound engineers and destroying the director's vision just as much as if you were watching in Pan-and-scan.

Of great importance is to properly adjust the delay on your center channel. Many modern soundtracks place dialogue both in the center and partially in the mains for directionality across the front soundstage. An improperly delayed center speaker can make dialogue sound muddy or sound like it's coming from behind the rest of the sound, because the small bit of dialogue information in the mains is arriving before or after that same information from the center instead of simultaneously. Measure the distance from your listening position to your main speakers, then measure the distance from your listening position to your center speaker. For roughly every foot closer your center speaker is, add 1ms of delay to the center. Information on adjusting this parameter can be found on page 60 of your manual.

Also important is to set your receiver's LFE/BASS OUT in the SET MENU mode to SW only (and not BOTH), and leave all LFE compensations at their defaults (0db for both DD and DTS on your receiver).

I note that you are running a passive sub on your surrounds. If you are running your surrounds as large because of this, then it is important to balance the level of that sub (if possible) to the level of the surrounds themselves. This is the exact purpose of Avia's bass adjustment tones being in each individual channel and not strictly in the LFE channel. You should be able to use these test tones with your SPL meter to dial in the sub's level so that it matches the level of the speakers. However, many passive subs do not allow you to adjust the level of the sub. In that case, use the tones to check the balance of the sub to the speakers. If bass is being greatly exaggerated by the passive sub, I would recommend setting the surrounds to small. You'll still get bass from the passive sub this way, but the 90hz crossover on the Yammy's bass management will help minimize any exaggeration from that sub.

I just watched Planet Of The Apes again last night so a friend could see it, and noticed no problems with soft dialogue whatsoever... and we were watching at about -8db from reference. My system is certainly not as nice as yours (Onkyo 595 with 4 Polk R10's, a CS175i and PSW350 sub), and yet I have no dialogue problems whatsoever for ANY movie in my 367 disc collection. I have never had to touch my individual channel levels after calibration. But then, as you can tell, I'm extremely anal about the calibration of my system (to the extent that I epoxied a laser pointer to the side of my SPL meter and etched in a line-of-sight protractor for aiming speakers). I hope that after you spend some time tweaking yours, your dialogue problems will be a thing of the past.

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

Exactly what I was saying. There are alot quiter sounds in the soundtrack than the dialogue.

True, however there is a difference between measured dynamics, and percieved dynamics. And the floor available to you is not necessarily increased by raising dialog level. Dialog is basically the RMS, and the rms level influences what quiet sounds will be heard.

A higher RMS, and you will not hear sounds as low as if you had a lower RMS.

So, again, effective perceived dynamics would be reduced by an increase in volume level. DVD would still have dynamics available to use- but you won't be able to perceive them.

-Vince

 

[Ryan Schnacke]

Vince,
You've done an amazing job at correctly and clearly explaining the issue at hand.
John,

I am NOT complaining about the explosions etc. being too loud. I do NOT want to reduce the dynamic range. I don't know if it's the makers of the movie or the sound engineer but the Planet/Apes movie dialogue is just too low. Yes, I could turn up the overall volume but the explosions etc. are allready very, very loud... and I do like that.

This quote confuses dynamic range with maximum volume. There's nothing that says you can't compress the dynamic range a bit and still have explosions at 105dB or 100dB or however loud you want them. Less dynamic range does NOT imply quieter. Lets take an example:
Say a specific movie has dynamic range of 50dB. The softest whispers occur at the bottom of that range, normal speech occurs in the middle and explosions are at the top. So if we watch it at reference then we get:
Soft whispers = 55dB
Normal speech = 80dB
Explosions = 105dB
Now if we apply 10dB of compression and adjust the volume to our preference we get 40 dB of range and the following levels:
Soft whispers = 65dB
Normal speech = 85dB
Explosions = 105dB
The explosions are still just as earth-shaking as before. But now our dialog is louder. Isn't this EXACTLY the solution that John and a few others are seeking?
Less dynamic range does not mean less volume.

 

[John DeSantis]

Jeremy:
Thanks for the info. I will try your method to set the levels. I'm not quite sure I follow you though. Are you saying point the Meter directly at each speaker as I adjust? The 30 degree thing threw me. I'm also a bit confused about "reference" level. Is this the volume level you use when you run the test tones? If so, how many dbls should the meter read before I start adjusting? I thought I heard someone remark about the reference level in a Theatre but then comment "we never listen at that level because it's too loud" My rear sub isn't adjustable as you suspected. The rears ARE set to large. I'll see how much BASS I'm getting and change the setting if it's excessive. You seem to be very familiar with the Yamaha 2095. Do/did you have one?
Another note regarding my center speaker. I originally had it atop the TV but I kept getting a ringing affect. Not sure how to properly describe it. But it happened with loud passages at higher Frequencies. I moved it down under the TV as it has a built in cabinet for components if you chose to use it for that. Anyway, It is enclosed somewhat and someone joked that I may be doing this. But it's at the very front and there is about 12 inches of space on both sides and about two feet behind it. Is this still a bad thing to do? It seemed to improve the ringing problem and I have it angled upward. By the way, I have hardwood floors :frowning:
Also, I just realized the POTA movie does have a DTS track. Didn't catch that untill you mentioned it. I want to see the difference.
Thanks to Vince and others also that addressed my issue. I have learned some things.........

 

[Jeremy Anderson]

I'll try to tackle as much as I can here (and hope I don't further confuse you):

1) NO, you do not point the SPL meter at each speaker when you calibrate. Let me try to explain... If you point the microphone straight at a speaker, that speaker is "on-axis" with the microphone, which gives you the most accurate reading for that single speaker. However, doing this for each speaker will not reflect the way your ears actually perceive sound in the room. Now tilt the sound meter so that it is pointing slightly to the left of that speaker. The angle between where the meter's mic is pointing and the location of the speaker itself is the off-axis angle. Now, at your listening position, point your SPL meter straight up at the ceiling at ear level. Look at the angle between where the meter is pointing and where your left surround speaker is. Now, with the meter still pointing straight up, look at the angle between where the meter is pointing and where your left main is. With the meter pointing straight up, the chances are pretty damn good that your surrounds are at a lower off-axis angle then your mains and center... which means they will appear to be louder to the meter (since the meter loses sensitivity the greater the off-axis angle becomes). THEREFORE, when aiming the meter to calibrate your entire system, the most reliable position will be that for which ALL speakers are at roughly the same off-axis angle. This may not be 100% possible, since mains, surrounds and center are often at different heights. In my room, I can get all my speakers to roughly the same off-axis angle from the mic by tilting the meter about 20 degrees forward toward my center. Was that clear enough for you?

2) Reference level is just that -- a reference for how theatrical soundtracks are produced. In the theater, the soundtrack mixer wants dialogue to be at about 75-80dB, with the loudest sound in each channel being 105dB (115dB LFE). To reproduce this in the home, you must adjust your system so that the loudest sound coming from a speaker is 105dB. To do this, calibration discs have tones at a specified level below this maximum 105dB. For Avia, this tone is encoded at -20dB from maximum, therefore setting each speaker to 85dB will yield a maximum output of 105dB. However, while this does accurately reproduce theatrical levels on a home system, most people do not watch movies at this level. It is merely a guideline so that you can match your home system to the system that the original sound engineer designed the soundtrack for. Personally, my average listening level is 10dB lower than reference level. Regardless, so long as you get each channel to the same level (no matter what dB level you use), you're okay.

3) I do not have the Yammy... I have an Onkyo 595. However, I was sitting here reading the .pdf version of the Yamaha manual as I typed all of that. Why? Because I currently have an upper respiratory infection and too much spare time.

4) A lot of times, putting the center channel on top of the TV itself can cause your television's enclosure to resonate (which is kind of a high-pitched vibrating plastic sound -- probably the "ringing" you heard). You can sometimes fix this by isolating the speaker from the television. Some people use rubber feet for this, and some people merely mount a shelf above the TV (and then use rubber feet to decouple the speaker from the shelf). Some people use angled rubber doorstops, which not only help isolate the center speaker from the TV, but also angle the speaker down toward the listening position.

5) Putting your center channel in an enclosure is a bad idea. I'll try to explain: Stand in your front yard and scream "HELLO!" Now stand in the doorway of your bathroom and do the same. Notice the difference? By putting your speaker inside another enclosure, you are essentially introducing a similar coloration of the sound, which (in extreme cases) can make dialogue sound like it has a bit of reverb to it (and make it unintelligible).

 

[John DeSantis]

Jeremy:

I think I understand the Meter positioning. I will give it a go soon. Right now I just got the so called "digital channels" from my Cable Co. and I've been having some hookup problems with the VCR. Since I now have a cable box there is no place to put it other than atop the TV. So, It looks like I'll have to try and mount the Center on the wall.

You must have downloaded the Yamaha PDF manual a while back cause I went looking for it last week and they didn't have it listed. Another member was good enough to E-Mail it to me.

Thanks again for your help.

John

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

Ryan,

Good post- you explained clearly in 100 words what I had failed to explain in over 1000.

Good show!

-Vince