When Are We Going to Petition for HD-DVD Format? We NEED HD-DVD to join OAR FIGHT! (1 Viewer)

[ChrisA]

We should really begin thinking hard about fighting for an HD-DVD format. With working prototypes of 100 gig FMD/Violet laser technology available, how long are you going to settle for a measly 480i format when your HDTV and projectors are capable of so much more? DVD is the equivalent technolgy of standard 480i NTSC or PAL. Are we so grateful for the scraps an morsels thrown to us by 'Hollywood' that we have to spend 100% of our effort just to stop the PAN AND SCAN/ 'ME NO WANT NO BLACK BARS' mentality, that we will just settle for standard NTSC resolution? Certainly we support widescreen and OAR, and to me, WIDESCREEN and HDTV also means supporting 720p/1080i HD-DVD. I know it is frustrating having to buy scalers, inducing many types of artifacts, including picture softening from interpolation, just to display DVD on an HDTV. Again, DVD is the technological equivalent of standard NTSC/PAL. When are we going to have a format that will actually match the capabilities of HDTV? We wonder why sales of HDTV and devices capable are slow? We wonder why people continue to ask for FULL SCREEN PAN AND SCAN? Well we need to sell more HDTVS... The KEY to selling more HDTV and HDTV display devices is having software that will EXPLOIT that format. In other words, what makes somebody buy a new computer if there is no software to take advantage of it? Not only do we need more HDTV programing in 720/1080, we need HD-DVD ASAP.
------------------
Link Removed

 

[Jim Robbins]

Many don't think we'll ever see, at least most movie studios would reject the idea of someone owning a copy of their films that was almost as good as the film itself. That would be the end of their money train. If it comes at all it may be limited to off the air stuff or non movie shows.
I for one am very happy with DVD's and don't really find myself wishing to spend money all over again for the same films just to gain more resolution.
I bet RAF would have a heart attack at the thought of replacing his 3000+ titles.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Chris,
while I agree it would be great to have HD-DVD right now...here's the reasons why we REALLY should wait:
1. if we get it now it will probably be limited to 720P or almost just as bad...1080I encoded which would mean pre-filtering for vertical detail to minimize aliasing. Yes, HD-DVD players could output 1080P just like today's DVD players output 480P...but why have filtered video?
HD-DVD should be mastered with 1080P in mind. All filtering should be done during 1080I downconversion in the player.
2. We don't want to end up with the same limits of space we have to put up with now....stuggling to fit DTS or extras or nix commentary to get everything to fit on a disc. Blue lasers aren't the answer...we need FMD for 40 gigs of bandwidth glory.
3. We shouldn't ever have to argue about DTS vs DD vs PCM and we shouldn't have to ever see a compression artifact in our picture. Let's wait for something better than MPEG2 to work it's way into the picture and let's wait until we have enough disc storage/bandwidth so we can have 7 channel uncompressed DSD or 24/192 audio. Why not?
4. we need to push for 20x9 encoding so 2.35:1 films will get their share of vertical resolution. I also would like to see 4x3 HD encoding for 1.33:1 films. If HD-DVD was let out of the gate right now, it would be 16x9 aspect ratio only and 1.33:1 and 2.35:1 films would loose resolution in comparison to 1.85:1 transfers.
-dave
[Edited last by DaViD Boulet on October 26, 2001 at 12:34 PM]

 

[Bruce Hedtke]

we shouldn't have to ever see a compression artifact in our picture

I don't know if this will ever be an option. Even a FMD disc is probably going to have to utilize compression to fit a film, extras and audio tracks onto it. Uncompressed video in a home format is still a dream but one worth striving toward.
Bruce
------------------

Welcome aboard the Satellite of Love

 

[Kwang Suh]

Once someone comes up with a medium that has a CD form factor and can store about 2 terabytes of information, we should ses a new format coming down the road.

 

[Rob Tomlin]

This is always in the back of my mind each time I purchase a new DVD. Will I eventually replace my DVD collection with HD-DVD like so many LaserDisc owners had to do??
Eventually....yes.

 

[GregK]

1080P
...Amen to that Dave!!!

 

[Patrick McCart]

How about in 10 years?

------------------
Visit my DVD review site, 24 fps DVD Reviews @ http://cztoondb.tripod.com/DVD/
and
The Colorized Cartoon Database @ http://cztoondb.tripod.com/

 

[ChrisA]

The bottom line is that DVD is inadequate in its current form. Like anything, there is no reason a 720p format could not come out, and then a 1080p format later on. Further, it would not be too big of a deal to convert 1080i into 1080p.

I don't know if this will ever be an option. Even a FMD disc is probably going to have to utilize compression to fit a film, extras and audio tracks onto it. Uncompressed video in a home format is still a dream but one worth striving toward

Sure, just like MLP/DVD-A compresses losslessly without any loss or change to the original signal, there is no harm for some degree of compression to video. And we don't need two terabytes of storage either, but I'm not complaining if it becomes available.
We need a delivery medium that matches the HDTV spec. If I don;t get it from DVD, I will get it eventually from Sattelite or other HD sources. This will certainly effect my purchases and I will not Purchase DVD anymore. You can click on the link below to see that I now have around 800 DVDs.
------------------
Link Removed

 

[RobertR]

The discussion about higher resolution and storage density and technological feasibility is all well and good, but it leaves out the other extremely important factor: MONEY aka Financial incentive aka revenue.
And by that I'm not talking about Hollywood's reluctance to put its films on a high definition format that we can all own, ESPECIALLY unless it has copy protection up the wazoo covering both source hardware and display hardware.
I'm talking about the fact that Hollywood won't do it for quite some time for the simple reason that they're making a TON of money right now with DVDs. They’re selling faster and faster, ESPECIALLY among us high end videophiles (INCLUDING people like me with high end HDTV capable displays). Just look all the posts in studio feedback and here in the software forum and in the studio chats wanting more product. We’re practically BEGGING them to put more, more, more titles into our eager impatient hands. Thousands more. TENS of thousands more. Are you really saying that you refuse to buy any more DVDs, and will hold out instead for HD-DVD? Is ANYBODY? Or do we instead clap our hands with glee over new title announcements and brag about being the first one to get a title?
Look at past format introductions. The historical fact is that new formats are NOT introduced until sales of the old format level off or begin to decline. It happened with LPs. Record producers saw that they couldn’t make more money with LPs. Philips and Sony came up with CD. Record producers kissed them and said goodie! Now we can sell our catalogs to people all over again! And that’s exactly what happened.
The same thing happened with LD and DVD. LD sold reasonably well with videophiles, but it was never a high-profit format, and it simply wasn’t taking off, and had NO growth potential. But when DVD was introduced, it took off like a ROCKET with videophiles. And it’s still taking off. It hasn’t reached orbit yet. And it will probably be a good 10 years before it does.
Until then, why should the studios bother with HDDVD? Why stop milking the cash cow? It’s IRRELEVANT that you’re screaming for your HD right NOW, Chris, because they know we’re gonna KEEP buying DVDs until the market reaches saturation.
And when they finally get around to selling HDDVD (when MILLIONS of us have HD displays, not just a few thousand), they know we’ll buy them TOO. And you know it and I know it.
------------------

 

[ChrisA]

quote: Are you really saying that you refuse to buy any more DVDs, and will hold out instead for HD-DVD? [/quote]
Sure, Why not? As I said before, I'm not interested in DVD, I'm interested in the darn movie itself. It is very possible that I will be able to get what I want through other means, perhaps Sattelite, Cable, etc...
I for one do not care (for the most part) for the silly extras and commentaries. In fact, that upcoming "Inside the Matrix" DVD is 'not for me'. While I appreciate the technology, I prefer the illusion. I do support a (2) DVD SUPERBIT, because I know other people want all the extras, and there is no reason for a SUPERBIT DVD not to have 2 DVDs so people can have their high quality and EXTRAS a well.
Fo me, I have no problem selling all my DVDs on EBAY in a heart beat. And frankly, I'm interested in picture and sound quality--if I can get better through different means, I may just forget about DVD. If I can't have HD-DVD, I'll certainly look for HD Quality elsewhere. SUPERBIT MY ASS

------------------
Link Removed
[Edited last by ChrisA on October 27, 2001 at 03:17 PM]

 

[Michael St. Clair]

For film-based material, there is no need to master 1080p. The pulldown allows real, honest to goodness 1920x1080p from a 1080i source. However, 24 frames don't go into 60 very well, so hopefully at some point we get 72fps 1080p hi-def projectors for the masses. All current hi-def sets and most projectors are just an interim step, really.
Anyhow, 16:9 doesn't help the OAR fight. It just makes J6P want to crop all his 4:3 and 2.40:1 material to 16:9. The OAR fight is already lost, we just need a source to supply material to our niche. Imports, high-end.

 

[RobertR]

quote: Are you really saying that you refuse to buy any more DVDs, and will hold out instead for HD-DVD
Sure, Why not?? [/quote]
You're in a VERY lonely position, Chris. I GUARANTEE you that when, say, Raiders of the Lost Ark comes out on DVD, and you try to stand in front of everybody and yell "wait! don't buy it! hold out for HD!", you're gonna be run RIGHT over by the stampede to buy it.
------------------
[Edited last by RobertR on October 27, 2001 at 03:37 PM]

 

[ChrisA]

DVD is 480 NTSC, we deserve better. If and when I get HD on demand, and be able to pick which movie I want to see and when in 720/1080, I'll certainly stop my DVD buying habits. Just because VHS is so piss poor, and DVD is just a little better than laserdisc, I see no reason to 'worship' DVD in its current form. I'm simply looking for something better and a match for HDTV, not NTSC (never the same crap twice). Yes, I can see them trying to milk 'DVD' for as long as possible, but I hope OTHER HD sources and delivery methods will put the pressure on them to develop and release HD-DVD sooner rather than later.

 

[Charlie Essmeier]

Will I eventually replace my DVD collection with HD-DVD like so many LaserDisc owners had to do??
Some of us never bothered to replace our laserdisc collections, as DVD wasn't good enough from day one. A suitable replacement for LD, twenty years after its introduction, needed to offer more than bumping up the resolution from 425 to 480 lines while sacrificing audio quality.
The logical replacement for laserdisc was high definition laserdisc. We could have had that years ago, but someone decided that making the disc 5" in diameter was the product's most important feature.
So, we wait. We wait for the public to decide that NTSC isn't good enough anymore. We wait for the technology to smooth itself out. We wait for the product to run through its life cycle. And we wait for the studios to come to their senses.
And I, for one, will continue to wait. DVD wasn't good enough in 1997, and it isn't good enough today.
Bring on HD.
Charlie

 

[RobertR]

The logical replacement for laserdisc was high definition laserdisc. We could have had that years ago

Actually, we HAVE had high definition laserdisc for several years in the form of MUSE discs. They haven't succeeded in the marketplace (mainly, I suspect, due to the very high price, in the range of $200-$300), and have ceased to be made.
Almost everyone else disagrees with you about DVDs not being worthwhile.
HDDVD will come in due time. That time isn't now.
------------------

 

[RobertR]

If and when I get HD on demand, and be able to pick which movie I want to see and when in 720/1080, I'll certainly stop my DVD buying habits.

"If and when"? Sounds like you're not holding out after all.
------------------

 

[ChrisA]

As I said before, I'm looking into other HD Sources. It very well may be that sometime, sooner than later, I will STOP buying DVD, and start putting all of that money I use to buy DVDs towards services willing to provide ON DEMAND HDTV movies. As much as I like to own a 'disc', a true 1080 transfer makes 'Superbit' DVD look like... well, NTSC. Copy protection of course would be an issue, but it is always an issue. I'm simply not satisfied with NTSC, and DVD is NTSC. I'm simply looking for HDTV level quality and other delivery methods may eventually stop me from buying literally $400-$500 a month in DVDs. I am starting to realize that I should change my tune and look into how I could spend the money in other ways. Right now I am one of DVD's greatest supporters, but I'm looking at it for what it is NTSC, not HDTV. I payed for HDTV level hardware, so I want the corresponding software it deserves. Provide me with 1080i and I'll gladly de-interlace it to 1080p.
------------------
Link Removed
[Edited last by ChrisA on October 27, 2001 at 04:21 PM]

 

[Rob T]

I'm quite happy with just plain old DVDs.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Lucas wants to wait until after episode 6 is out, so I do too.
Glenn