THX: Is it REALLY worth it?? (1 Viewer)

[Scott McAllister]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, I did a search for THX and came up w/ about 80 pages of results. Plus, this is my first time posting in this forum.

I'm looking to upgrade my HT from it's current setup, and I'm considering the idea of having THX certification on as many components as I can. My question to all you gurus is this: is it really worth the *significant* extra cash to have THX certified equipment? The sub-question to that is if the former is true, then which components are the most important to have certified?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Scott

 

[Scott Oliver]

No its not all that important, but you could also say it depends somewhat on the dollar level being spent.

For higher level stuff, it is just an added expense to pay for the certification. This type stuff already performs above THX standards anyhow.

But for lower cost stuff, THX can mean piece of mind because you know it performing to at least their pre-set THX level.

Overall THX is low on priority scale no matter what dollar level is being spent. Use your ears and buy what you like, and what offers the features you need.

 

[David Judah]

IMO, it's not important with Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks. At one time it might have been beneficial to have the RE-EQ circuit, but now DVD producers take the home environment into consideration when they are making DVDs.

If you listen to alot of things encoded in Dolby surround, then perhaps the surround decorrelation could come in handy, but not to the degree that you would upgrade just to have it.

Of course, if you buy into the "quality" aspect of THX certification then you might be able to justify the upgrade like you would by buying into any brand name, but again, IMO, it's not critical because there are many quality components that don't get certified.

I'd say get whatever components you think are best within your budget and if they are THX then it's a bonus, but don't buy them just because of the certification or exclude others because they don't have it.

DJ

 

[DanielSmi]

THX is not expensive it only cost about a couple dollars per unit. THX does not tell the company what price to sell them for, it doesn't add like 1000 per unit because then no company would do it. I do have THX cert stuff, my receiver and dvd player both are. I plan on getting an external amp and it just so happens that it's thx cert but I didn't plan it that way, it's sort of an added bonus. This amp doesn't cost a ton of money more than the others in it's class actually it's cheaper by about $500 bucks. How could this be possible if it isTHX cert?

Daniel Smith

 

[Jay Sylvester]

My preamp, amp, and speakers are THX certified. I bought my preamp (Anthem AVM 20) knowing it was THX certified, but not really caring either way because of its already excellent reputation. I didn't find out until after I had purchased my amp (Rotel RMB-1075) that it was THX certified when I saw the logo on the front panel. THX certification did play a partial role in my choice of speakers (M&K), but I was blown away by the demo at my dealer, which is what really sold me.

It worked out fine for me, but I would say that basing your purchase decision on THX certification isn't the best way to go. Go with what sounds good and what you can afford. Scott is correct that many hi-end components would pass THX certification whether they have the license or not. But being certified certainly doesn't hurt. Keep in mind that by "hi-end," I'm not referring to the stuff you can get at Best Buy either (no snobbery intended).

IMO, it's not important with Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks. At one time it might have been beneficial to have the RE-EQ circuit, but now DVD producers take the home environment into consideration when they are making DVDs.

That's not true across the board. As a matter of fact, other than Mi Casa's work (which includes most of New Line's films), it's a crap shoot. Many DVDs are near-field mastered, but many DVDs have the X-curve intact, so they require re-eq. Laserdiscs with DD or DTS soundtracks are pretty much guaranteed to have the X-curve intact and match the theatrical mix, hence many people's preference for LD soundtracks when compared to the DVD equivalent. However, many receivers/processors have a generically labeled "Cinema EQ" feature that performs the same function as the THX re-eq.

Also, keep in mind that THX covers much more than just re-eq. It involves things such as speaker frequency response, crossover points, and processing modes such as THX Surround EX and Ultra2 Cinema. There are also a whole set of standards for the setup of your system that you're supposed to follow in order for it to be THX certified, such as screen size and sitting distance, speaker placement, etc. When a processor that supports all of these options is grouped with an amp and a set of speakers that follow the same rules, and you follow the setup recommendations set forth by THX, you do get superior results.

 

[Craig_Kg]

The biggest advantage is THX certification is ease of setup if ALL your equipment is THX. A bunch of THX equipment can be bought almost at random, plugged together, switched on, set to THX mode and will perform reasonably well (given a half decent room and setup).

NonTHX equipment may take some matching and adjusting but can produce the same final result.

 

[David Judah]

That's not true across the board. As a matter of fact, other than Mi Casa's work (which includes most of New Line's films), it's a crap shoot.

I can't recall any new title I have watched in the last year that could have benefitted from RE-EQ.

DJ

 

[LanceJ]

I think THX-branded electronics don't seem to offer much, if any, improvement over "regular" electronics.
But THX speakers are a whole other ball game.
Unless the specs have changed lately, THX-certified speakers must have certain dispersion characteristics and bass output capabilities.
Front mains and center channel: These are required to have limited vertical dispersion. This prevents too many sound-smearing reflections from the ceiling and floor. This is usually accomplished by using multiple tweeter & midbass arrays, typically in a "stacked" formation. Remember, the wider a driver is, the narrower its sound dispersion angle becomes. This is why 3" cone tweeters have that "beaming" quality compared to 1" domes, or especially those super-skinny ribbon tweeters. Anyway, being stacked one on top of each other narrows the up/down dispersion angle but side-to-side dispersion is unaffected--a good thing! And all three fronts have to be identical.
Surrounds: have to be dipoles.
Subwoofers: can't remember exact specifications, but I know they are very tough. When I worked at Incredible Universe (r.i.p.) for X-Mas in '95, we sold an Altec-Lansing THX system. (This was when this classic brand still made real speakers) The huge sub had two down-firing 10" drivers; this almost-coffee table size sub was truly scary to hear with "Terminator 2" playing on Laserdisc!
Several magazines tested THX speakers and found they did improve the movie watching experience: sound in front was very precisely positioned, and side-wise movement was very smooth in front and around to the sides/rears. But with music? Most reviewers found the sound to be sterile sounding & too precise.
But to be on the safe side, better check the THX website for the latest information.
LJ

 

[Jay Sylvester]

I can't recall any new title I have watched in the last year that could have benefitted from RE-EQ.

Maybe your speakers have a "soft" quality to them which lends itself to minimizing the X-curve. Perhaps your amp is "warm." Or your processor. Perhaps all three. What hardware are you using?

On my system, highs on movie soundtracks are often exaggerated or shrill without re-eq engaged. Music CDs sound normal, if a bit clinical at times. THX speakers are accurate--some would say brutally so.

Whether you feel certain titles "benefit" or not from re-eq is your personal opinion. According to THX, if the X-curve has been preserved from the theatrical mix (as it should be), it should be removed by the controller barring any special circumstances such as speakers behind a microperf screen or a huge room with theater-like acoustics. I have mixed feelings about near-field mixing for the home environment. As good as the DTS mix is on the extended cut of FOTR, it doesn't sound very theatrical to me.

I happen to agree with the way THX suggests movie soundtracks be handled--provide the mix just as it was in theaters and let the controller make adjustments depending on the environment. Tinkering with soundtracks like Mi Casa does is a bad thing, even if the results seem pleasing right now.

 

[Tom Camlioglu]

Scott,
Regarding :
"For higher level stuff, it is just an added expense to pay for the certification. This type stuff already performs above THX standards anyhow. "
How would you know what the THX standards are ?? - they are not open to anyone but licensees ...
It would seem your post is more on assumption, you think?

 

[David Judah]

The reason I don't think RE-EQ needs to be engaged that often is because DVD producers are taking it into account much more often than you think. It is more the rule now, not the exception like it used to be.

I use what many would consider revealing speakers(B&W 9NT), a fairly neutral processor(Pioneer 45 TX), and a warm amp(Sunfire Cinema Grand). You can click on the house icon to see my room and placement.

Of course, the room and personal taste will also determine if THX processing is beneficial. Again, IMO, DVD production has evolved to the point where adding an additional layer of processing is largely unecessary, but to each his own.

As good as the DTS mix is on the extended cut of FOTR, it doesn't sound very theatrical to me.

Really, how so? I am genuinely curious, not trying to be argumentative, because I think it is one of the better mixes out there with alot of little nuances and good use of the rear sounfield.

DJ

 

[Yogi]

Beauty lies in the beholders eyes, and so does THX worthiness
Seriously most of my gear (Proceed, B&K, Vienna Acoustics, silver cabling...yada yada yada) blows away THX specs and yet isn't certified. The only other peice is the processor that I want to upgrade in a year or two but unfortunately all the ones I like are THX certified so I'll be paying the associated royalties.
IMHO, THX is nothing more than a club membership, and I am not a member of that club

 

[Scott McAllister]

Wow, all these respsonses just reveal how much I really don't know. Here are a few more questions.

1. Now I knew about THX's proprietary Re-eq, but I don't know what exactly it does, what parameters it operates under, and how it does it. Can anybody field this one?

2. What is this X-curve used in DVD mixing?

3. Here is my current setup, I would LOVE some suggestions regarding where to start upgrading. The DVD player is tops on my list of things to change.

Sony STR-V555ES
Sony 1st gen DVD player, no pro-scan, no component video
Sony 27 inch Trinitron, not a flat screen
Wharfedale Modus 1.6 for the front speakers
Venturi V70's (I think) for the center and surround.
JBL PSB-10 sub
10 gauge Monster speaker cable all around
Monster optical cable from the DVD to the receiver.

Suggest away!! Thanks!

 

[Tom Camlioglu]

Scott :
This link should be able to help you for more on THX ...
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/Buy...?ArticleID=171
Tom

 

[Jay Sylvester]

The reason I don't think RE-EQ needs to be engaged that often is because DVD producers are taking it into account much more often than you think. It is more the rule now, not the exception like it used to be.

Is there data to back this up, or are you relying on your ears to make this assessment? I'm not trying to provoke you either. I'm genuinely interested in finding more data on the subject, since everyone who posts in the software forum asking about releases with RE-EQ already applied gets the same reply: definitely Mi Casa, and a big question mark for everything else.
Check out this thread in the software forum if you haven't already; it's the best discussion of the X-curve and re-eq I've seen.
It just scares me that Mi Casa is messing around with soundtracks that some very competent engineers have already mixed theatrically. It makes me wonder what else they're touching that they shouldn't. Why not just leave the soundtrack intact and let the processor handle it?
Regarding the mix for FOTR, I suppose the best way to describe my dissatisfaction is that the soundtrack seems to have been "dulled." It just sounds a little flat to me, not as dynamic as I feel it could be (and no, I didn't leave re-eq on by mistake ). That's really more of a personal preference though, and not a problem I have with just FOTR. As a matter of fact, very few DVD soundtracks are as dynamic as their LD counterparts (if they exist), and I think it's due in large part to this down-mixing trend championed by Mi Casa. The DTS-ES track on FOTR:EE is definitely a reference track as far as DVD is concerned, but there are tracks out there that I like better. I think I've been spoiled by LD soundtracks, which truly are dynamic and theater-like, despite their lower DD bitrate. DTS is always full bitrate on LD I believe, and my DTS LDs are certainly my favorites.
I'm turning this into an LD vs DVD thing, sorry about that. Really, FOTR:EE is about as good as DVD gets. Maybe the flatness I'm hearing is attributable to the low bitrate rather than anything Mi Casa did. Their soundtracks certainly do top the list of DVD soundtracks, except for the original theatrical cut of FOTR, which is severely overcooked. However, some of the quotes in the thread I link to above from the Mi Casa people frighten me a bit ("This is not motion picture, this is DVD.").

 

[David Judah]

Jay,

I'm basing my statement on articles and interviews I've read in Surround Professional(Tom Holman's publication)and other magazines. As hobbyists we don't often have all the facts like someone in the business, but with professional journals and other publications available, we can at least, get a small glimpse of some of the issues the pros face(like the one we are discussing).

It just scares me that Mi Casa is messing around with soundtracks that some very competent engineers have already mixed theatrically.

I don't interpret it as a bad thing--just the opposite. The engineer has no way of knowing if RE-EQ will be applied by the end user, so Mi Casa and others, in my mind, are simplifying the process by making sure the track is already set-up for proper playback on a home theater system, just like the attenuation of the surround levels(remember when the early DTS DVDs were 3db too hot because no compensation was made from the theatrical mix).

In fact, if you look at alot of the new or fairly new mixing rooms, they are laid out like a HT system and many use consumer equipment to monitor. Since the home market is the intended audience it makes alot of sense and it makes it easier for standardization.

DJ

 

[Robert McClanahan]

Yogi,THX is not a club membership.The reason most high end processors have THX processing is because they know as well as myself that it truly does improve the sound when any movie material is post processed with THX circuitry.You dont have to buy it,but I believe it makes a huge difference,even over properly calibrated processors that do not have THX.

 

[Yogi]

Well I believe that you would only get the benefit of THX if everything in the reproduction chain was THX certified including your room. How would you know that you are hearing the soundtrack as the movie producer intended for you to listen, if your room isn't THX certified or if only some of your gear is THX certified. I have done A/B comparisons between the 3802 and the 4802 (THX certified) connected to an external amp and I couldn't for the life of me find any difference between the two during HT playback and so didn't any of my friends. Maybe it would if everything else was THX certified and if the room had the right dimensions and treatments as mandated by THX, I dont know. But I think for someone to just go out and buy a THX processor makes no sense.
There is a discussion going on in another thread about what influences sound most and I think the consensus by far is that speakers and rooms affect the sound most. The rest of the reproduction chain i.e., amps preamps, sources, cables etc are not that much apart in sound. I believe one should concentrate on making sure his room is the right kind of dimension and has the right treatments and then get the best speakers he likes and experiment with placement etc to get the best seamless soundfield. After which he can decide if he needs THX or not. No amount of THX processing can compensate for ill-chosen speakers and ill-designed rooms.
In a nut shell there are other more important things to worry about other than THX when setting up your HT.
Hope that makes my position clear.
Cheers.

, even over properly calibrated processors that do not have THX.

Wait till one of the DBT objectivist hears this esp. the part about 'huge difference'.

 

[GordonL]

I don't interpret it as a bad thing--just the opposite. The engineer has no way of knowing if RE-EQ will be applied by the end user, so Mi Casa and others, in my mind, are simplifying the process by making sure the track is already set-up for proper playback on a home theater system

I think that is a bad thing. Mi Casa is assuming everyone's environment needs RE-EQing when that may not the case. For instance, some people may have applied room treatments to account for the X-curve and don't need further equalization. How is that re-mix going to sound? Not how it's supposed to, that's for sure.

 

[Tom Camlioglu]

Yogi,

But I think for someone to just go out and buy a THX processor makes no sense.

So I take it you're no fan of (anything) THX ??
While you have demonstrated your replies on sound playback and room dimensions (which is fine, to each his own eh?), you seem to skip over the fact that THX gear, including it's internal components have to meet a certain level of standards.
I don't know about you, but I like knowing that I've got at least some degree of quality in my system. I'm not saying that everything that doesn't have "THX" on it is garbage, and contrarily I personally don't know of any THX components as being garbage either, Sub-par? possibly, but certainly no more than any comparable component I've come across (yet).
I know there are components out there that are of very high quality w/out THX certification . But the THX-badge tells me that this component passed a series of battery tests, at the very least from a functional perspective. Maybe knowing that makes me sleep better at night ..who knows?
Sure, THX certified gear is generally more expensive, but maybe understanding why instead of saying that on one test you couldn't find a difference in terms of sound playback and commenting on "paying the associated royalties", may help you out somewhat.
You also state that you need "everything" in your HT to be THX certified ... and while true from the standpoint of getting the most out of THX, you should keep in mind that THX aims at fixing certain problems inherent in HT setups compared to the Movie Theater. Every piece is designed to address certain flaws, and only with the sum of all these pieces can you have the full benefit of THX. But that shouldn't mean that the THX process is "broken" or "crap" if you only possess one or a few THX pieces ... it just means (to me) you are one to a few pieces away from the full benefit.
You (know) you don't have to have it all THX to have a great-sounding system at home. I think that the "royalty thing" has gotten your goat (and maybe clouded your perception a little -- no?)
Take a look at the link in my previous post above, and also look into the section called "Earning the Badge".
Again, I'm certainly not trying to change your (or anyone else's) opinion on THX, but I felt that your last post was lacking certain points to really justify everything you were saying IMO.
PS: (On another point, the THX Ultra2 spec is a different beast where sound playback is concerned ...) - Sorry had to add that ... :wink:
Tom