Subwoofer connection (line level vs speaker wire) (1 Viewer)

[Edward J M]

If your mains are set to large and your sub is set to off/no, then nothing comes out of the sub during 2 channel direct playback.

If your mains are set to large and your sub is set to on/yes, then:

1) In Direct/Pure Direct mode, the sub will duplicate the bass information in the mains at all frequencies below the xo point you selected in the set-up menu.

2) In Stereo mode, the sub will be silent if you have the subwoofer mode set to LFE.

3) In Stereo Mode, the sub will duplicate the bass information in the mains at all frequencies below the xo point you selected in the set-up menu if you have the subwoofer mode set to LFE+Main.

Ed

 

[PaulDA]

This is pretty interesting stuff. I hope I can put it to good use.

 

[ScottCHI]

ok, edward, thanks a lot for helpiing to straighten me out there. i still am a bit puzzled, but that's probably because i haven't had enough coffee this am.

i've given in, though, and am running my music "2.1", now, on the "stereo" setting. for some reason, i just didn't want to use it. i guess i felt it was a compromise from the direct or pure direct setting. i tried to reconcile the "flaw" as being "by design", too, i think. denon even sort of presents it that way; as a "benefit". i guess it's just more a "consequence" than anything.

but thanks for giving me your time and not becoming angry with my incessant questioning.

hehe. now, one last thing.

ahhhh. for some reason i thought that the xo frequency option wasn't offered in that instance. i was totally wrong. i did find, though, while screwin' around with this last night, that something comes out of the sub, no matter whether direct or stereo, in this circumstance. this is with an optical connection from my dvd/cd player. maybe with analog connections, things are different. so basically, with my digital connection, as long as i have the sub set to "ON", it will always reproduce those freqencies below the receiver's xo setting (+LFE when dd/dts), no matter what any other settings might be, direct or stereo, SMALL or LARGE. that's easy to remember. for some reason i thought it was more complicated than that and that maybe the sub out was unfiltered in certain situations, etc, etc..

thanks again, edward!

 

[Edward J M]

Naturally we are discussing the digital connection here because the AVR3803 will only do BM with a digital input. Other more $$ AVRs will actually do BM with the analog inputs (Denon's flagship AVR being one of them, I think).

While I didn't try it, I'm surprised the sub still plays in scenario #2 above. If the mains are set to large, and you don't have LFE+Main selected in the Subwoofer Mode menu, the sub "should" be silent in 2 channel source material. The only way the sub should play in this config is if the source material had an actual .1 LFE channel. If the 3803 operates otherwise, I would classify that as "non-conventional" BM.

Again, the Personal Memeory Plus will remember any setting for Direct/Pure Direct, so I always set up the 3803 main menu with all speakers Small and sub Yes/On with an 80 Hz, and then in Stereo mode I get the sat/sub BM. If I switch to Direct/Pure Direct, I just toggle down the sub to Off with the remote, and this won't alter the main set-up menu, so I'm running full range mains with no sub in Direct/Pure Direct. Then you can toggle back and forth in the fly between Direct and Stereo and see which you prefer. Make sure the two modes are calibrated to the same overall level so a valid comparison can be made.

Running in Stereo mode is a compromise (in a sense) over Direct/Pure Direct because you DO lose the ability to shut off the non-essential circuitry and go full analog, etc. There is another way to skin that cat though.....see below:

I have the DVD-2900 and the AVR-3803 and I use the 2900 for all music via the analog outputs because I prefer the SQ of the 2900 D/A chipset a bit better than the 3803 chipset for music (and I have to use the 2900 anyway for SACD and DVD-A). So I do all the BM for music at the 2900, and send the 3803 an already filtered signal to the External Inputs. Both the 2900 and the 3803 can be run in Pure Direct mode in this configuration, so I can still retain the benefits of shutting down all non-essential circuitry in the 3803 while still retaining a sat/sub BM config identical to the digital input Stereo mode in the 3803. Clear as mud, right?

 

[ScottCHI]

actually, i think i'm going to go ahead and get the 2200, today. wifey gave me the ok. guess she felt my distress last night as i fiddled endlessly, listening to the same bassy sections of certain cds, over and over again.

thanks for all the help and advice.

soon to be clear as a bell!

 

[Edward J M]

Feel free to PM me on the 2200 set-up, as the External Sub Level control on the 3803 will be an integral part of the overall sub calibration.

I'm a terminal tweaker, and I've actually calibrated (using Avia) the 2900/3803 analog External Inputs to the exact same level as the 2900/3803 digital coax input. So I can directly compare the sound of the 2900 chipset vs. the sound of the 3803 chipset. Once again, Personal Memory Plus to the rescue: the 3803 will remember all channel levels for the External Input mode too, without affecting the main set-up channel levels for DD/DTS.

If you want to do this, you'll need to adjust the combined channel levels in both the 2200 and the 3803 Ext. Inp. until you hit exactly 85 dB at the seat for each surround channel using Avia.

For two channel music, I can now toggle on the fly between three listening modes: 1) the 2900 chipset via analog inputs (sat/sub BM); 2) the 3803 chipset via digital input in Stereo mode (also sat/sub BM); and 3) the 3803 chipset via digital input in Direct/Pure Direct mode (full range mains only with no sub). All three modes are calibrated to the exact same level, so all you are hearing valid differences between chipsets, interconnects, sat/sub, and full range. Lots of fun for the tweakers out there (you sound like a terminal tweaker too).

After the dust settled, my final preference was the 2900 via analog inputs to the 3803 with BM done at the 2900 (small, 80 Hz xo, sub yes), and both components running in Pure Direct mode. Sounds fabulous. BTW, I'm using six Signal Cable Analog 2 interconnects between the 2900 and the 3803.

Regardless of mode, etc., the towers/sub definitely sound better than the towers alone. I get cleaner, deeper, and flatter bass from the sub, and I get much clearer mids from the towers.

My towers are three driver, 2-way (i.e., two midrange drivers). The midrange-tweeter xo is 2,500 Hz IIRC. The F3 of the speaker is 42 Hz. Think about it, if you run the towers full range, you are asking a set of 6.5" midrange drivers to produce bass down to 40 Hz and mids up to 2500 Hz. The comparatively huge cone excursions required by the stuff below 80 Hz will significantly modulate the frequencies in the 1000-2500 Hz region, which in comparison require tiny cone excursions (this phenomenon is called intermodulation distortion). Clearly, if you limit the cone excursion of the typical tower mid/bass drivers by high passing them at 80 Hz to an external subwoofer, the midrange clears up significantly - most report a big increase in clarity and detail.

 

[ScottCHI]

yeah. i know. and i have been thinking of the whole setup as "one speaker". i even considered getting the kefQ1 bookshelves as fronts to match my rears, instead of the Q5 towers i got, plus an additional matched sub, when i got all this new stuff recently. was just going to place a Q1 atop each sub (is that bad?) and consider each one a "whole". in retrospect, now, after this and the other threads, i wish i had done that. i'm beyond the 30days, now, but i think i'm gonna run the idea of returning my towers and exchanging/paying for another pair of bookshelves and another sub, by the dealer today when i go to get the 2200. as much as i've bought (and am still buying, fercryinoutloud!) from them recently, they oughta let me.

thanks, again!

 

[ScottCHI]

***** UPDATE *****

well, i waited to be certain before posting, but after much fiddling, here's what i went with:

fronts = large
center = small
rears = small
sub = NO!
xover = 80Hz
my sub is now connected to the front left and right pre-outs and, as edward said, the lfe channel IS being routed through those front pre-outs, during 5.1 playback, since the sub is set to "no".

i know this may not be "correct" for 5.1 movies, but i find that my music, which is what i mainly use my system for anyway, sounds much better this way. my front speakers play the music full-range, the way i feel front speakers "should" work when playing music. the sub fills in where the speakers drop off. i'm able to run the sub's xover (has same slope as receiver's would have) lower than 80Hz (still fiddlin') and boost it's volume, so i'm getting even better sound on the lower end. the way i see it, my front speaker's drivers, at 6.5 inches, are much better at producing music around the 80Hz mark than my sub's 12" driver is. i "free" the sub from having to produce that higher end, and the lower end benefits, which is what i want out of my sub, music-wise. i just could not get used to listening to the quasi-2.1 sound with the 80Hz xover, and, unfortunately i was unwilling to lower that setting on the receiver in lieu of my other speaker "sizes" (they really should offer different xovers for your center and rears on this 3803).

i realize that during 5.1 playback the sub-80Hz stuff from the center and rears (and maybe even some lfe stuff) is being rerouted into my mains (and sub, of course) with this setup, but i can accept that. frankly, the really, really low lfe stuff probably benefitted with this setup, too. it's all about compromises, i guess. in this case, i'm willing to let my amp and speakers really work to produce the low-end during music playback, instead of "giving them the break" that running the 80Hz xover would supposedly give them. payoff is a better music sound, imo.

i realize this may not be the solution for everyone, and that individual results will depend upon your exact components, but this worked for me and my stuff. anyway, i'm happier, now. a big thanx to everyone who helped out in this thread!

 

[Lewis Besze]

As long as you don't crank up the master volume you'll be fine.
I used to have my [ex] tover spekers set up as such,[large but Yes for the sub]untill the voice coil in the woofers almost got fried, because they were over driven[I have separate power amps for each channels].I do listen movies loud,so I ended up high passing them.Then I dumped them for bookshelves.

 

[ScottCHI]

i think in the final analysis, the setup i settled on is probably more a reflection of my sub's inherent capabilities (or incapabilities) than anything else.

a special thanks to chris squire for helping me on this, too

 

[Harry Lincoln]

Interesting thread, one thing that occurred to me concerning the sub connected to the main speaker terminals/main pre outs - what happens to the +10db on the LFE channel with DD and DTS material?? The boost must not be happening in this configuration to prevent overdriving the mains?? Any thoughts on this?

 

[ScottCHI]

i'm not sure why people keep saying "overdriving the mains". the speakers were made to play "full-range". speakers don't just bottom-out when faced with an abundance fo low end information. they have a natural roll-off. the mains produce the high end of the LFE signal. the rest comes out of the sub. it's probably no different than a set-up that has no sub at all. the LFE signal goes to the mains, they make what they can of it, and the speakers are NOT "overdriven".

i doubt any "boost" is happening when the sub is set to off, though. what +10db boost are you talking about, exactly, anyway?

 

[Edward J M]

Any DD/DTS pre/pro automatically boosts the LFE channel 10 dB. That is why the bass peaks for the LFE channel are rated at 115 dB at Reference vice 105 dB for the surround channels.

I don't have the hotlink handy, but get thyself over to HT/HF Secrets website and bone up on "The Misunderstood LFE Channel" for more info.

The over-abundance of ultra low frequency and ultra high amplitude bass on today's popular action/fantasy 5.1/6.1 DVDs is what generally makes life difficult on "full range" mains with smaller mid/bass drivers.

They simply can't move enough air to do full justice to these extremely demanding passages, and at a minimum typically compress the dynamics and lop off the entire bottom octave. At worst the VCs fry or the mid/bass drivers outright bottom, or both. It all depends on how hard you push them, really.

 

[ScottCHI]

i'm running the same set-up that someone without a sub would run. that's all. with a sub to provide added umph on the very low end. i don't know what happens to the 10db; it comes out in the wash like it always did, i suppose. i don't think blown mains is a common problem with people who run no sub, regardless of their driversize, is it? maybe it is. i've never seen this as a common complaint, though. many run with no sub, for whatever reasons, and the LFE channel is directed entirely to their mains, be they massive towers or tiny bookshelves.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Personally I don't know anybody who don't use a sub,or use it in a fashion as you do.
Like I said, it really depends on the listening levels you use your rig,It would have been a history after one day in my house.

 

[ScottCHI]

in my recent readings (trust me, i've been surfing this subject), i've discovered my setup is not at all uncommon, and many have come to the same exact conclusions and setup as i have.

 

[ScottCHI]

i understand. perhaps, after i get a chance to listen to (watch) more movies, particularly the LOUD ones, i'll be back here to renounce the error of my ways.

i think another solution, as suggested earlier in this thread by edward, would be all SMALL, and to use 2 different crossover settings; a lower one for music, and the 80Hz for movies. easy to implement, i suppose. just something i've been resisting.

 

[ScottCHI]

well..................

...........back to a 2.1 (quasi) set-up............


.........................this week

 

[Lewis Besze]

I don't deny that I was reffering to personal experiences, and to people I know personally .