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"ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD" -- A Personal Review (1 Viewer)

Jeff Gatie

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You mean the "coverup" team who allowed themselves to be independently filmed while "covering up" the crime of the century? :crazy:

Besides, evidence was removed. How else did the Warren Commission get information on the items and conditions inside the limousine, including blood splatter and bullet fragments? Did they make them up? Was that part of the "coverup?" If so, like most conspiracy theories, your "coverup" team is starting to encompass hundreds, if not thousands of people. Let's see, the Secret Service, the film team, the eyewitnesses at Parkland . . .

Oh yeah, and the entire Warren Commission, including members, investigators and clerks. :crazy:
 

Neil Brock

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There were a lot of people who had a vested interest in Oswald being the "lone nut killer". Hoover for one. This happened at the height of the cold war. What would have happened if people believed that the Soviets or Cubans were behind the assassination? WWIII. There was a great deal at stake in the findings of the Warren Commission.

BTW, any explanation for the bullet that was still in Connally's leg? Still waiting.

YouTube - Dr. Shaw- "bullet still in leg"?!?! 11/22/63
 

Jeff Gatie

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Why don't you answer why your vaunted "coverup" team allowed themselves to be filmed while cleaning "ALL EVIDENCE" from the limousine, evidence which then magically appeared in the Warren Comission Report in the form of photographs and actual items from the car? Start with that (actually, you can start with explaining your bogus Rose Cherami story, but I assume you're never going to admit your mistake on that one, so I gave it up).
 

Jeff Gatie

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Oh and by the way, are you saying the Russians and/or Cubans were behind the assassination, and in a stroke of international brilliance they picked for their "patsy" a Communist sympathizer who had lived in Russia and attempted to emmigrate to Cuba? What's next, the KKK assassinating a black or Jewish leader and pinning it on a skinhead?
 

Hollywoodaholic

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I love a good JFK assassination conspiracy debate as much as any boomer who lived during that horrifying day, and this thread is certainly entertaining (thanks, David), but the simplest contradiction to anyone still harboring notions of a vast (or even less vast) conspiracy is basic human nature (and particularly American nature in the last 40 years): People yab.

I think anyone curious enough to read extensively, or think extensively goes through a phase (particularly in our 20s and 30s) where conspiracy theories abound and flourish. Living in California for a period of time doesn't help. I went to Mark Lane lectures on the JFK assassination; Colonel "Bo" Gritz lectures on the secret machinations of the military industrial complex (including a plan to use nukes to build a new canal through Nicaragua); K.C. Depasse audio tapes on the Federal Reserve Bank, an empty Fort Knox and the New World Order; and the Harmonic Convergence (okay, THAT one was real; the Cold War ended shortly thereafter ;) ).

Not to mention all the end of the world natural disaster and World War III Armageddon conspiracies and theories; including (fill in your favorite name here) as the anti-Christ; pole shifts caused by the alignment of the planets on May 5, 2000; Y2K; and a dozen other predictions, now featuring the Mayan calender 2012 for a new generation of world ender-philes. (Isn't there a certain narcissism to the idea the world is always going to end while YOU are living in it? Various individuals, religious groups and just plain paranoids have been thinking this for centuries.)

But, the more end dates you live through, the more conspiracies you see just peter out for any real lack of nourishment from facts; the more you get a view of the bigger picture in life; and how these things take a life of their own, why people are fascinated with them, and why most of them are simply bogus.

And it's the same for the Kennedy assassination. The more time goes by, and nothing every really compelling shows up, and no one ever really believable comes forward, it just loses more and more credibility. We've lived too long now through a period where people will do anything to get their camera time, to believe they are important, or just to make a buck. People talk. People talk for money. People talk for publicity. People talk because they just love to fucking talk. People talk because they're crazy. People talk. And the press has ALWAYS been willing to listen to anyone saying anything about the JFK assassination because it's just a perfect storm of compelling historical and human interest.

And perhaps the main reason we can never really put this story to rest is because it's just too unbelievable that a legend of a man and a moment (or movement) like Kennedy and Camelot could ever be wiped out by something as mundanely simple as one deranged bozo named Oswald with an Italian rifle that jams a lot. Isn't it so much easier to believe it was some carefully plotted, deep-reaching conspiracy between the CIA, the Mafia and LBJ? Doesn't that carry a lot more weight for an event of such personal, political, emotional, and overwhelming gravitas?

I'd love for someone credible to actually show up with an irrefutable tale on what really happened that goes beyond what we all really know in our guts; that things are never as complicated as we make them out to be, and the obvious answer is ... usually the obvious answer.

Perhaps this will all end when the final JFK documents are unsealed after the 75 year imposed moritarium. But I wouldn't hold my breath. A lot of people have already read those documents, and if there were anything shockingly different than what we've already heard, well, we would have heard it by now. People yab.

I have no trouble taking many things in life on faith; there is some kind of ordered and higher intelligence in the Universe; alien life forms do probably exist on other planets (even if they haven't visited ours yet); global warming is real (and even if it isn't, what's so wrong with cleaning our acts up?); karma happens ... eventually (it's coming, Dick Cheney); and the media companies will continue to find new and expensive ways to sell me my same favorite music and televison shows over and over again.

I just don't put any faith into vast, unsupported conspiracies that go unspoken of by the vast amount of vastly imperfect and potentially chatty human beings who would need to be involved.

But that's just me, and I could be crazy, too.
 

Jeff Gatie

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Nice summation Wayne. I too used to read all the books and believe everything I heard. But with age comes wisdom (after all, look how much smarter my father became as I grew up).

As to this:


I particularly like the reincarnation fanatics who all claim to be a famous historical figure in a past life. None of them ever claim to be Achmed the slave boy who got run over by a runaway oxcart at the age of 7.
 

Ed Moroughan

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My answer would be thus: OOPS! Mistakes are common in life whether you're the just assassinated president or not. I said something similar in DVP's book thread, Oswald was a loser who wanted to be someone and he is now isn't he not only because of the murders but because of the industry of defenders he has gotten.
 

phil*

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The reason why conspiracy theories abound so many years after the JFK assassination,is because there are countless circumstances re: same which have never adequately been explained,for example:1) seconds after the shots rang out,dozens of eyewitnesses ran towards the grassy knoll,NOT the Texas School Book Depository,because these people not only believed they HEARD the shots originating from that location,but several of these people saw whiffs of smoke emanating from beyond the stockade fence.Were these eye and ear witnesses ALL wrong? It's possible...but not likely;2)The amount of bullet fragments remaining in Governor Conally's body to his dying day EXCEEDED the amount of fragments lost from the so called "magic bullet" that was recovered on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital;3) Governor Connally and his wife Nellie,who were both seated in the same limousine in front of the President,ALWAYS maintained that Kennedy and Connally were hit by different bullets;again, were these two individuals,who were within feet if not inches from President Kennedy both incorrect? Again,it's possible..but not likely.
 

phil*

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No...actually they haven't...any of them..please enlighten me..and tell me how these eye and ear witnesses were all hallucinating at the same time...
 

Jack P

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Oh yes they were. The problem is you just don't like the answer so you keep asking the question even though it's become a pointless one. When Group A thinks it's the Depository and Group B thinks the Knoll (and the number of earwitnesses was equal) and the subsequent *physical* evidence validates Group A, then Group B simply has to be chalked up to human error. Because I would like to point out that both groups can not be right especially when NO ONE in the Plaza says shots came from *multiple* locations. Thiis is one of the really strange things about conspiracy thought, because it ultimately is forced to rest its argument on the claim that the way things happened is a way that not one single eye or earwitness in the plaza can lend credence to, the idea of shots from front and rear.
 

David Von Pein

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That's not quite true (but close). There were only 5 witnesses out of a total of 104 (via the data amassed by John McAdams for the chart shown below) who fall into the "Shots Came From Two Directions" category, including S.M. Holland (one of the favorite witnesses amongst conspiracy theorists).



[HERE is the detailed tabulation of the 104 witnesses that comprise the above chart.]

The above chart is one I like using when arguing with conspiracists, because that chart illustrates the fact that over 95% of the earwitnesses heard shots from only one single direction (be it front or rear), which is absolutely incredible (and unbelievable) if people like Jim Garrison and Oliver Stone are correct about the assassination, with Garrison advocating up to five gunmen popping away at President Kennedy, and Oliver Stone (in his 1991 film) placing three shooters in various places throughout Dealey Plaza (and with no silencers being utilized on these weapons).

At least no "silencers" are mentioned being used in the film. But, then too, that movie is so full of lies and distortions and half-baked nonsense, it's hard to know what the "plot" really consisted of. Clay Shaw, who was on trial for conspiracy to murder JFK, seems to have no real role or purpose in the "plot" at all. It's all a bunch of make-believe horse hockey of the first order.

Anyway, when you evaluate the incredibly-tiny percentage of "Two Directions" witnesses that observed the assassination of the President (as compared to the "One Direction" witnesses), it becomes glaringly obvious (to me anyway) that the people who fall into the "Only From The Grassy Knoll" pie slice had to have heard only Oswald's shots from the Depository, but the unique acoustics in Dealey Plaza played tricks on their ears, and they thought (incorrectly) that ALL of the shots had come from a location further west of the Book Depository Building.

And even most conspiracy theorists will readily acknowledge the fact that at least some shots came from behind JFK's car. How could they not acknowledge that fact, since both Kennedy and Connally were shot in their respective backs from behind?
htf_images_smilies_smile.gif


Plus, how in the world are the "plotters" [Clay Shaw, et al, per Ollie Stone] going to frame Oswald as their proverbial solo "patsy" if they don't fire at least a shot or two out of the window that Oswald is supposed to be firing his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle out of when the assassination is occurring?*

* = That's a point I always like bringing up when discussing one of the sillier of the conspiracy-loving kooks of the world -- Robert J. Groden. Because Groden, incredibly, per his 1993 book "The Killing Of A President", thinks that no shots at all likely came from the "Oswald window" on the sixth floor of the TSBD. No kidding. He really says that in his book.

Check out Pages 20 through 40 of that book to see that hilarious theory for yourself. And Groden, btw, thinks that as many as 10 shots were fired! But ZERO shots were likely fired from the Oswald window. He's got one possible shot coming from Oswald's window, but even that shot Groden thinks "probably" [Groden's word] came from the second floor of the Dal-Tex Building instead of from the sixth floor of the Book Depository. It's hysterical.
 

Jeff Gatie

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Uhhh . . . yes . . . actually they have. Enlighten yourself to a little phenomena called "the preponderance of evidence." In short, a greater number of witnesses said the shots came from the Book Depository . . . you know . . . where they found the rifle, with 3 spent shells!!

As to the others, check out David's links in this post: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...-review-2.html

Then you can come back to this thread and mention Rose Cherami, the evidence wiped from the limo, and anything else we've already covered. :rolleyes
 

RobertR

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So, modern rifles don't emit puffs of smoke, making the "I saw puffs of smoke claim" rather meaningless. Or are you claiming that the conspirators used special smoke-producing rifles in order to draw attention to themselves? Or maybe Oliver Stone used the wrong rifles. Hey, maybe HE'S part of the conspiracy! You never know!
 

Shane D

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witnesses or law officials? i know if i hear gunshots im not going toward the sounds. im going the opposite way. why would any normal person go to where someone is firing a gun into a crowd?
 

Jeff Gatie

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Sorry, no logical explanation can trump the ability of a conspiracy theorist to twist any and all evidence into what they want to hear. That explanation would only be usefull to their preset agenda if the people were running away from the grassy knoll; but they weren't, so it is dismissed. Please try again. ;)
 

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