*** Official COLLATERAL Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Tim Glover]

That would be cool Could be like Gollum vs Smeagol.

 

[Nathan V]

Michael Mann is such a badass. With this film, he has done it again- yet another testosterone-infused, thought-provoking, & ultra-hip work of art.
This is definitely the best film to come out of this summer, and my #2 for this year so far. Everything about this film, from the opening telephoto shot of Cruise to Jamie Foxx looking uncertainly at the horizon, is absolutely amazing. Nobody else could have directed this. Every frame screams Mann- the chemistry between Foxx and Jada in the first cab ride (not to mention Foxx and Cruise), the opening close up shots of the taxi, the extensive use of zoom lenses, the killer cinematography (easily the best of the year), the patented 'mann shot-' (the edge of the back of someone's head on the extreme edge of the frame, with everything else out of focus), the impeccable use of music, Cruise's acting. My favorite scene was the coyotes crossing the street, particularly the look on Cruise's face during that scene. Of course, the club shootout was jaw-dropping- the way Cruise stomps on the guy's face, the lighting, the outstanding sound design- I could go on for hours. And boy, does he capture Los Angeles to a tee. As someone very familiar with the city, having been in most of the locations seen in the film, I can say that this film perfectly encapsulates the type of place Los Angeles is. Mann is just so effin' good at creating atmosphere.

As for the digital video issue, I encourage everybody to check out the latest American Cinematographer, which discusses the technical visual aspects of te film in great detail. I don't think Mann has been converted permanently to digital, at least I hope not, but it was very necessary for parts of this film. (When he could afford to shoot on film, he did, i.e. the club shootout, all the other indoor stuff)

Unlike other people, I had absolutely no qualms with this picture. I tried to stay away from reviews, but had heard rumblings of a bad ending; I was expecting the worst (everybody committing suicide, random car crash, everybody going to jail, etc). I was pleasantly surprised. Yes, the ending could be called cliche; indeed, we have seen many subway chases before. But have we ever seen one directed this damn well? Just because dozens of other directors create subpar subway scenes, is the Mann somehow disqualified from making a superior one? I don't think so. We have Vincent seeing Max as such a pathetic guy, and unconsciously teaching him in the art of becoming self-assured. Max unconsciously learns from Max, and therefore, the finale. To quote Da Vinci, "poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master." Max is no poor pupil. That's why the scene with him and Javier Bardem is one of the best scenes in the film. Anyway, that's how I saw it.

Regards,
Nathan

 

[Steve Felix]

Nathan, your enthusiasm is infectious. I'm with you on the ending. The plot isn't always equal to the real story and the real story under the surface was seen through to an excellent conclusion. Plus, when the images are clicking like they do in this movie, I can't manage to care too much what's going on with the plot.

The club scene is breathtaking. I'll probably see it a third time in theaters and then it will be going frame by frame on DVD.

I also read the AC article. Collateral is really something new visually, and maybe that's why I can't stop thinking about it.

I rewatched Heat and noticed that De Niro's character (Neil) also uses the "two in the chest, one in the forehead" technique. Is that standard for professional killers or a Mann trademark?

 

[Mario Bartel]

I think it's a Mann thing. He often revisits ideas, techniques and plot points in subsequent movies. He also re-uses character names and actors, often flip-flopping them from bad guy to good guy and vice-versa.; anyone else think Mark Ruffalo was channeling Al Pacino's Vincent Hanna when he was trying to put together the crime scene in the alley?

 

[Kevin Grey]

Is it just me or was the large black semi going by the overpass in the background near the beginning an obvious visual nod to Heat?

 

[Mario Bartel]

I didn't catch that, but I thought the whole opening scene with Tom Cruise's arrival at the airport was very much an echo of Robert DeNiro's entrance to the hospital at the beginning of Heat.

 

[Ryan FB]

It's a standard shooting and self-defense technique. Usually known as a "failure (to stop) drill" or more recently a "Mozambique Drill", the "two to the center of mass (then optionally assess the target), one to the head" technique is often taught and practiced in shooting classes.

 

[Alex Spindler]

One of the many things I enjoyed in the film was how Jamie Foxx grew Max throughout the film. His way of expressing his limousine fantasy showed an ability to act a part through recitation (he repeats the phrasing and presentation of it almost exactly to both Annie and Vincent in a way that he believes it himself. As he's in the club and finally portrays Vincent, he clings to Vincent's phrases to get into the part. When he overpowers the cop, he also says the 'negotiation' line again which was great.

I don't think I can ever see Cruise as anyone but Tom Cruise, but his channeling of De Niro's Vincent was very workable and I enjoyed his portrayal a good deal. He handled the physicality well, of course, but managed the dialogue and drama with some uniqueness that I enjoyed. I'm left wondering if he'd have made his exception on killing Max at the end of his cycle, but for his own professional security, he'd have been compelled to. It would have been interesting to see a scene should he have killed Annie and was this left with the task of killing Max. Although the film could have ended any of three ways (both survive, either die), I think I could have enjoyed all three variations.

His shots of the city really captured me. When I go back to LA for vacation, I almost always fit in time for an after hours drive through it, which is when the city is at its most beautiful. In that way, I can honestly say that Collateral is the most perfectly authentic look at the beauty of LA. Seeing it captured like it was was just surreal and perfect, and I'm having a hard time thinking that film would be able to have done the same thing. Between this and Heat, Mann has absolutely given some of the most gorgeous looks of the city I've ever seen.


If I had any gripes, I wish the club music was louder. The dialogue in Club Fever between Max and Vincent was largely irrelevant and the music being as soft as it was seemed very off for me. I would have loved for the final sequence to have been a cacophony of sounds with the gunfight and music adding the apparent chaos and precision shooting of Vincent. Not in the same category, but Blade would have been a good model for how oppressive club music is and how a gun fight could be placed among it.

I also sort of wish that the ending was handled a bit better. If the guy that Max takes the cell phone from yelled after him, "Take it, it's a shitty phone anyway", I'd have been kinder on the cliche hijinks they use with it. And perhaps if Vincents last lines were shortened - Only "Do you think anyone will notice I'm dead" and leave us to make the connection to his previous MARTA story ourselves would have been suitably enigmatic and fitting.


All in all, I loved the film. Not quite as much as this years Man on Fire and not approaching my unending love for Heat, but a solid film worthy of much praise and easily standing beside his best work.

 

[Nathan V]

Very interesting point. I didn't catch on to that at all.The script is deeper than I thought.

This movie warrants second viewings like nothing else. I will definitely be heading out to the local cinerama again this weekend. BTW, tentative dvd release is scheduled for December 14.

Oh, one other thing, Mann's next film will be about the 1933-1934 crime wave, and how Hoover and the FBI came into power. Leo DiCaprio is set to star. Do you guys UNDERSTAND how awesome that's going to be!?

Regards,
Nathan

 

[Ben Silva]

This is not so far fetched, I was once pulled over for going 90 on the freeway at 4am and the cop was about to write me a ticket when he got called away on something more serious.

 

[Mario Bartel]

Oh yeah! I saw Edwin's post about that the other day and was immediately anticipating my trip to the opening day matinee for that film!

The way Mann made 1960s Chicago and Las Vegas sizzle with noir coolness on a tv budget in Crime Story, I can only imagine the magic he'll be able to weave with 1930's gangsters and crime fighters with a big-movie bottom line and A-list stars!

 

[Paul.S]

Had some plausibility quibbles with some convenient coincidences (i.e., Felix’s bosses cased Annie so well over time that they knew her night-before-trial routine would have her in her office in the wee hours) but on balance I thoroughly enjoyed this as I strongly suspected I would.

A Hollywood Reporter story last week said Mann shot I think 80% of the pic film and 20% digital--thus the two cinematogs. The fact that I had/have difficulty delineating film from vid is a testament to what a friend told me was a post pro process Mann used on the digital footage to get the grainy film look he wanted. And it looks remarkable. Had no prob with the way a film presentation of this pic looked on the biggest screen (I think 60'+) at The Grove theaters here in L.A.

I’ll try to peep that issue of AC, Nathan, but do you mind relaying more on what you mention in your post #42, namely what was film (Fever, other indoors) and what was digital?

I concur re the significance you mention in your post #31, Mario, of Mann not having written this pic. But boy did he direct it.

On that tip, I enjoyed lotsa arguable references/homages to other pics:

Not unlike in Set It Off, Exactly the example I was thinking of as I was first reading/agreeing with your comment.

Heckuva lot to be said about the significance of the title, too. Perhaps in another post.

C'mon D'Works and WHV: partner to put this and the Heat: SE together in a delicious 2-fer!

-p

 

[FredHD]

I could recyccle a lot of the things already being said here, specifically many of the positives, but i'll just say this. It is not often that I have really felt like I have gotten to know a character as well as I did with Max. I think his personality and traits were developed very well. Kudos to Michael Mann and Stuart Beattie.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Quentin, I totally agreed with that in my review of the film (which I just posted).

The script is pretty ugly when you peel away Mann and some of the other talent on this film.

Endless coincidences, endless on-the-nose dialog...well, not even OTN, but rather dialog that says "here is what will happen next" or "here is how we establish a problem".


When they hit the subway you know Cruise is dying there and going back to that original dialog. When JP Smith and Foxx talk you just know she is going to be the prosecutor of that case and they will meet up.

When they want to remind you that Foxx is in real danger the have to have Ruffalo give us that awful dialog about "remember that cab driver case from a few years ago" story. Putrid stuff at times, very clunky.

Also, I love how the entire FBI team runs out of the club the minute one guy gets wounded. They no longer maintain surveillence on their prime suspect or his vehicle, they don't even stay to protect their witness (except for whomever was already there, either club, personal or previously assigned FBI bodyguards). The film requires them to bail to get Foxx and Cruise away again, and only because it painted itself into a corner trying to have the cool shootout scene.

Maybe if the cartel guys pinned down/shot more FBI people and Cruise took out 2 FBI guys as they drug the witness away then I would have bought it. As it stood that entire plotline was a fubar.

Sad when you consider how good other parts were. I liked Ruffalo's early investigation and even after the cops just let a guy go driving a car that clearly looks like a hit and run situation, at least they called into the station to verify his return.

Also, there were plenty of times when I felt like Foxx could sneak away or sneak a note to someone, and Cruise was especially bad at bringing him into those situations when I would expect him to lock him in the trunk.

I would have brought the mother thing into the film sooner as a threat hanging over Foxx's head right from the start. Have him go by there before taking Cruise anywhere, or have him talk to her or someone on the radio before the first stop so that Cruise now has real leverage over Foxx right from the start.

Also the ending requires the trained killer to lose a shootout with Foxx at point blank range. Mr. "2mm taps" himself (don't get me started on that bit of morgue dialog, totally unnecessary to have Ruffalo see the other body anyway).



Please keep in mind that I rave about Mann's direction and the cinematography in my review and gave the film an 8.5. This is only my tirade against a script that should be thankful to get the Mann treatment given to it at all.

 

[Seth Paxton]

As others said, Foxx shoots him in the right chest during the close-quarters shootout at the end. His only other wound before that is the shot to the face (not quite sure what that was supposed to hit, I thought cheek but later it appears okay).

 

[Nathan V]

Good mammoth of a post, Paul. I never noticed that DeNiro rides the Blue Line at the beginning of Heat. As for the AC article, much of it was entirely too technical for me, and I can't quite remember all the deatils, but 4 types of cameras were used, at least 2 of which were digital. The guy who shot "Man on Fire," Paul Cameron, was the original DP, but left early on due to creative differences. Mann found a new guy, whose name I cannot remember, to shoot the rest of the film. Various interviewees mention the exacting vision of the Mann, and how that prevented the 2 DP situation from leading to a film with 2 different visual styles (a la panic room). Mann, as usual, supervised everything with great precision. There was not a digital DP and a film DP, as has been rumored. There's much discussion about lighting for digital film, and how much it differs from normal film lighting techniques (significantly brighter lights were needed), how the movie was shot on the digital equivalent of super 35, Mann raved about digital's ability to get exceptionally low-light visuals. I'm sorry I don't remember the article very well, but I encourage fans of the film to check it out, it's very detailed and very interesting.

Seth, Good point about Mann being LA's Scorsese. That connection hadn't registered with me before, but it makes perfect sense.

Regards,
Nathan

 

[Patrick Sun]

So, Seth, have you seen "The Village" yet?

 

[Alex Spindler]

I love the analogy of Mann being LA's Scorcese. Perfect.


The coincidence factor only really hit me with the traffic stop and the officers called away. When they followed it up with Max's supervisor, I gave it a wash because they acknowledged it and used it to good effect in the film.

The rest of the film seemed to fall right in place for me. I found Max's reaction to the killing of the two gang members for his attempts to draw attention as reason enough for him to not attempt any wild escape maneuvers. It was only when he knew Vincent was going to kill him (mainly because of how he played the Jazz player by giving him hope just to kill him anyway) that he took a bold chance. I thought it was quite a moment of character development for Max to take the reigns and force some change, even to the point that when it was clear that he wouldn't be able to escape him he would still stop him from killing two other people. Dovetails beautifully with a Max who would crash his car and kill himself to stop Vincent from killing again, even before he finds out it will be Annie.


I will say you're right on the nose that the material presented could have been a much less effective film in less hands and with lesser actors. But I don't think the script is as bad as you'd portray it.

 

[Alex Spindler]

Tracked down the American Cinematographer article in a store and found it a pretty fascinating read. While obviously focusing on the technical aspects of the cameras and shooting, there is some great anecdotes of the great pioneering work they were doing with night shooting. Great stuff.

Per the AC article, the interior scenes and action shots were done on film and they say that made up 20% of the movie. The remainder was HiDef. But they also concur that the change in DPs was due to creative differences and the replacement DP worked on both the HD and film work.

 

[Edwin Pereyra]

Wow, I can’t believe how forgiving here The Village detractors are to this film. Could it be that they finally get an action thriller, which has its own “twist” in the end, therefore, all the nitpicking is off?

For example, in the first killing, Vincent could have easily picked up his personal belongings in the cab and walked away from Max and not have his whole identity revealed to him. But since Mann’s purpose is to create a relationship between the two characters, we are forced to accept this situation.

In another, we have a highly protected Asian witness and even though bullets are already flying all over the place and with everyone else already in a panic, he remains bolted to his seat as if nothing is happening.

Also, what is Hollywood’s problem in making a well-known actor a true villain? Does he really have to die slowly and say his famous last words before he actually meets his fate? Why can’t he just quickly die like Mark Ruffalo’s character? He is a killing machine. He doesn't have morals. Why the need to humanize him? Oh, wait a minute, Cruise is the $20M star of the show and he gets special treatment.

This is in addition to those already noted above. Still an enjoyable and tense-filled film and its flaws are not as glaring as other films in this genre. It still gets a recommendation for the reasons I mentioned in the review thread.

~Edwin