New Outlaw subwoofer!?! (1 Viewer)

[james e m]

Wow, I love competition! I just read this information from the Outlaw newsletter. This is great news for me because I am in the market for a new sub!
James

Straight from the horses mouth:

Sneaking in under the competition’s radar, the Outlaws announced a second new
product in San Francisco. Perhaps the most frequently asked question we receive
that does not deal directly with our own products is “What type of speakers do
you recommend for use with Outlaw electronics?” Very shortly we’ll be able to
have a new answer to that question when it comes to one category of speakers,
subwoofers.

On view for the first time at the HE Show was Outlaw’s first speaker product,
our Low Frequency Module, better known now as the LFM-1. Many of you know that
the Outlaws have considerable experience in the world of speakers, and we’ve
brought that knowledge to bear on the LFM-1. However, just to make sure that we
have all bases covered, we engaged Dr. Po Ser Hsu, world renowned for his
subwoofer designs and technology, to work with us on the LFM-1.

This is also a totally new, totally Outlaw, totally unique product, based around
a 12-inch die cast driver in combination with a 350 watt amplifier and a
downward firing, ported cabinet design. The result is a combination that is
projected to deliver over 115 SPL from 20 Hz to 100 Hz. The unit weighs in
excess of 75 pounds so it is unlikely to move, but we advise you to secure all
other fragile objects in your listening room, as the LFM-1 will literally shake
the house!

Working with Dr Hsu, we chose a 25 Hz system design. When room gain is taken
into account and proper placement of the LFM-1 is made, the unit will be flat to
20 Hz,

As with the RR 2150, we’re still a bit away from delivery, as the first
shipments of the LFM-1 are planned for some time this fall. However, since we
know that many of you plan your upgrades in advance, we decided to announce the
LFM-1 at this time so that you may consider it for future system use.

The price for this remarkable subwoofer will be under $600. In the true Outlaw
tradition, this will make the LFM-1 a tremendous value unmatched by anything
even close to that price.

We’ll provide more details on the LFM-1 on the web site in a week or so, along
with pictures of the model that was displayed in San Francisco.

 

[Ned]

The price for this remarkable subwoofer will be under $600. In the true Outlaw
tradition, this will make the LFM-1 a tremendous value unmatched by anything
even close to that price.

cough*(SVS PB1-ISD)*cough

 

[Dustin B]

The result is a combination that is projected to deliver over 115 SPL from 20 Hz to 100 Hz

This is the part that concerns me. A 75 pound enclosure means it will be very similar in size to the Adire Dharman or SVS PB1 (assuming similar build quality). An enclosure that size with 350W and a 12" driver tuned to 25hz putting out 115dB at 20hz. I won't hold my breathe.

Neither SVS with their Ultra or Adire with their Sadhara, both of which I'm quite confident will greatly outperform this new Outlaw sub, make silly claims like this.

Besides the fact that the cost of a 12" driver that could move enough air to produce 115dB at 20hz would make a below $600 price point impossible. There is no way an enclosure that small could fit sufficient porting to allow that kind of output level without serious port noise.

 

[AlanZ]

I am a very satisfied customer of both SVS and Outlaw. But I don't even have to see, hear, or read about the Outlaw sub to know where my sub money will be going next week. SVS rules

 

[Dustin_Taylor]

While I'm a happy Outlaw owner, this new sub has me scratching my head a bit.

They claim the SUB is flat from 20hz and above. The are using room gain to justify their claim.

Why don't they just say flat from 25hz to 100hz? They make a blanket statement about every room with that. I know this is hair splitting, but still, they should stick to spec'ing their sub instead of my room.

Dustin

 

[Zack_R]

I think there is a formula for calculating room gain.

 

[Dustin_Taylor]

I think so too, but every room is different thats all. Like I said, I'm nipicking.

DT

 

[Brian Bunge]

Besides the fact that the cost of a 12" driver that could move enough air to produce 115dB at 20hz would make a below $600 price point impossible.

Dustin_B,

I don't know if I agree with that. I have a pretty good idea of what it would cost to have 100 drivers similar to the Shiva built. If you double of triple that number the price is even better. If you step up to something similar to the AV-12 then of course the price goes up. But again, if you can order several hundred at a time I think you can easily meet the $600 price point.

I won't argue about the port noise issue though!

 

[Dustin B]

I haven't actually crunched the numbers, but wouldn't it take a 12" driver with more excursion than the Tumult to reach that kind of output level in that size of an enclosure. And even in bulk do you think it could be manufactured cheaply enough to keep the online price at below $600 (with a good plate amp and a well built box).

 

[Geoff L]

So let all guess, nit-pick, analize, try and figure it all out.

Why dose this always happen.

Blanket statment or not, the only thing that I see is the last line in the email about the LFM.1 sub.
A very strong statment to make and they know "very well" who are their compitition in this catagory.

======>Quote
"Unmatched by anything even close to that price"
======>End Quote

Wait till the product apears then do your comparisions with hard data against other products, be they Mass market or Internet sold only...

Well they asked for it by making such statements?, YUP they sure did!!!!!

Till it's available, you can analize the shit out of it and it's really pretty meaningless, why, cause it's speculating at best without "ALL the known facts" of the COMPLETE Design, Amp & Driver being used.

Regards
Geoff

 

[Brian Bunge]

Geoff,

I agree with you completely. My favorites are asking how SVS' new sub "X" (which no one currently has) will compare to 'n' number of SVS sub(s) Y. My question always is, why the hell post this on the forum? Why not simply send an email to Tom or Ron? After all, anyone that actually responds to the initial post other than Tom or Ron is merely speculating.

 

[Robb Roy]

Brian,

Part of me always wonders about those kinds of threads as well, but that's part of what's going on in discussion forums. People are discussing their hobbies with each other, and speculation is a common piece of casual conversation. So long as people recognize it's speculation, there's no harm. It's probably even healthy intellectual exercise.

-Robb

 

[CurtisSC]

My favorites are asking how SVS' new sub "X" (which no one currently has) will compare to 'n' number of SVS sub(s) Y. My question always is, why the hell post this on the forum? Why not simply send an email to Tom or Ron? After all, anyone that actually responds to the initial post other than Tom or Ron is merely speculating.

Totally agree with you guys, but my favorites are the ones saying how great something is and not being able compare it with something.

 

[Mike_Gr]

In response to:

"Many of you know that the Outlaws have considerable experience in the world of speakers, and we’ve brought that knowledge to bear on the LFM-1. However, just to make sure that we have all bases covered, we engaged Dr. Po Ser Hsu, world renowned for his subwoofer designs and technology, to work with us on the LFM-1"

I find the paragraph above to conflict itself. If they truly had the experience needed to build a good sub, they wouldn't have needed to pay Dr. Hsu as a consultant. (you don't think the good doctor did it for free, do you?)

I smell an HSU clone in the works. If it looks anything like their other equipment....it will be a large eyesore.

 

[Robert_Gaither]

Yeah Mike, but the question is that this new Outlaw sub performs like the claim why buy a VTF-3? I'll only believe this when it comes out and a few objective reviews are made.

 

[Chris Quinn]

The Dr. Hsu consulting bit may just be smart marketing. The Hsu name carries instant reconition by anyone who has sent more than an hour on audio boards.

 

[Mike Sloan]

Where's Bob?

 

[Edward J M]

I agree with you completely. My favorites are asking how SVS' new sub "X" (which no one currently has) will compare to 'n' number of SVS sub(s) Y. My question always is, why the hell post this on the forum? Why not simply send an email to Tom or Ron? After all, anyone that actually responds to the initial post other than Tom or Ron is merely speculating.

Hi Brian:

The relative output levels of various SVS drivers and subwoofers are well established.

If you pay close attention to Tom V's posts, you will note he isn't shy about dropping more than sufficient hints about the performance of current and new SVS products for any informed enthusiast to make quite accurate estimates about how sub "X" will measure up against sub "Y".

Even Tom V speculates occasionally on bench racing scenarios, since he admittedly hasn't had the opportunity to yet drag out (for example) "twin PB2+ vs. a B4+" for ground plane measurements.

While I can only speak for myself, I always qualify my posts about SVS bench racing with a recommendation to check with Tom for the final word.

"Why the hell post this on the forum?" Clearly this is a case of simply indulging the wants/needs of the forum members. Bench racing subs is one of the most popular topics on this forum; it seems almost everyone finds the subject fascinating.

This is analogous to the evergreen Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge muscle car shoot-outs. Enthusiasts have been bench racing hot rods for decades and it still generates the same level of excitement and enthusiasm today as it did in the 60's. I don't think the American public will ever grow tired of shoot-outs and comparos - it's in our blood, we love it, and we always want to talk about it.

Regards,

Ed

 

[Doug BW]

Brian said:

The result is a combination that is projected to deliver over 115 SPL from 20 Hz to 100 Hz.

Note Outlaw's use of the word "projected". In this case, it appears that even Outlaw is "speculating" about its own subwoofer's performance. (No need to "project" if you've measured, right?)

Given that Outlaw is using their own speculations to encourage people to hold off on purchasing a sub until "some time this fall" (which could mean December 20), I think it's entirely appropriate and useful for knowlegeable people like Dustin to come in and offer their own informed, alternative projections.

By the way, forecasting the performance of a sub designed by Tom Vodhanel and produced by SVS is a pretty different game than forecasting the performance of a sub designed by Outlaw. Tom and SVS have a very well established track record for producing subs. Outlaw has a very well established track record for producing electronics, but no track record for producing subs.

 

[Brian Bunge]

Edward,

I totally understand everyone wanting to bench race, especially the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge folks. After all, I did grow up in the South where orange Chevy Novas are seen almost on a daily basis. But I also imagine you won't get much input from the engineers of those companies on internet forums either.

All I'm saying is, if you have "The Man" at your disposal why not use him? I've got nothing against SVS believe me. I think they're great value for the money, especially compared to retail subs. I recommend them to people when I feel they fit their needs. My only gripe is I wish they'd offer a choice of finishes in their lower end lines, where you can have any color you want as long as it's black.