Need Home Theater Audio Advice/Opinions... Newbie here! (1 Viewer)

[Jamie Peters]

Thanks for the calibration Tips and also on how to get advice on my speaker placement... Dang, this HT stuff is adictive and I don't even own any yet... My wife thinks I have become obsessed....

OK TIMGRA, let me in on the sub placement... the suspense will kill me....

 

[TimGRA]

OK here goes-
Become very familiar with the term imaging. You will need to know and hear that for your own ears. Your high end dealer will be able to show you this if you do not know what it is.

To the sub we go~
When you have finally achieved your first task which is front speaker placement. I should explain. Your front speaker should not be NEXT to your television if at all possible. You want a minimum of 2 feet between your TV and front speakers. A perfect world would actually be 4 feet. Remember we are looking for the illusion that sound is moving across the screen. In order to achieve the speakers can not be right next to the TV. speakers will also sound very different if they are pulled out away from the wall. It goes on and on.

With your fronts correctly in place and listening in 2 channel stereo, your listening position would be in the center of them back on the couch, it should sound like the voices are coming from the center channel. Agin I stress, the center channel is NOT ON, but it sounds like it is. That is imaging.

You then take your sub and physically put it on your couch where you were just sitting and play some MUSIC that has allot of bass. Here comes the crazy part. Get on your hands and knees and begin crawling around the room. Especially the corners. At some point the bass you hear will explode. That is where you put the sub. Then you begin listening to see how tight or mushy or boomy the bass. Turn the sub, pull it out from the wall etc. to see how it changes. Mind you im sure a professional could come in and meter all the sound waves, but this will work fine.
I have spent thousands on HT equipment and I could not believe how well this worked the first time I tried it.

OH then if your sub allows you have phase control. That is a whole other explanation.

pertaining to an early topic on rear speakers. You will need to decide if you are going bi-pole or not. It sounds like your room would be best suited for bi-pole speakers.

Oh and for the record. We are both home with our wives on Friday night talking about home theater. Your obsessed!

 

[Jamie Peters]

That is pretty crazy TIM... I will try it though... Speaking of wives and HT equipment. Mine is all excited about it.... Am I lucky or what? We did have a good discussion today about what order we are going to do this in since I can't afford a TV and SS all at once... At first I thought I would get the surround all set up on my crappy 10 year old Zenith TV. We were talking today and I told her that I had a lot more listening and reading to do before we would be ready for the surround sound system... She said that since I knew what TV I wanted why we just didn't get it now and be enjoying it and then get the surround sound system when I was ready... SO... We are going tomorrow to get our new TV. A 51" Hitachi Widescree Ultravision (51S500)....

Circuit City has them on sale now for $2099 PLUS I get a $250 store gift card. I will use this on my Velodyne Sub.....

 

[TimGRA]

Congrats on the new TV! Good choice. I recently bought the 57" and love it. OK this may need to move to another thread, but burn in on your TV will be critical. I would be very shocked if your salesman really knows how to set it up. Move to the TV part of the forum and check it out. That is a good price. You may want to take that $250 and apply it to a quality surge/line conditioner if you don't have one.

 

[Sean_P_O'Brien]

TimGRA - I was wondering if you were familiar with the Aperions given your location. I've been to Portland only once, but enjoyed the city very much. I'll be sure to find the Aperion warehouse if I ever make it back. I ultimately took the Internet based gamble without the in-store audition, but given their no-hastle policies, free shipping and the excellent customer service, I made the right choice in the end. I love the speakers. Their a tad bit bright, but it actually suits my taste, and in the HT realm they rock, especially the 12" sub. If your neighbor happens to be Korey Kathers, a customer service rep, give him my best. He's been an excellent source of help thusfar.

I'll have to experiment with your sub placement suggestions. I am a little limited in my possible choices, but have at least positioned it and calibrated it to equate with the other five in decibal output. It sounds good, but I'm curious now based on your procedures noted above.

Jamie, hope you enjoy that television!

BTW, I am fortunate to have a generous wife, who doesn't necessarily get overly excited about the HT, but has not prohibited it from finally happening either. It was a nice Christmas indeed.

 

[TimGRA]

Sean.
On you sub cable, have you split it with a "Y" adapter at the end before you plug it into the sub?

I have to echo that my wife has been more than gracious about all of this. Major investmnets of time and money as you know. I think the biggest reward for me in all of this is just being able to help other people. I have been to countless numbers of my freinds homes to educate and set up thier theaters. Mind you I am still learning myself, but that is the nature of this industry. Its always changing. Just get ready, after your freinds and family come over and hear what you have done you will just get to pass on the knowledge.

 

[Sean_P_O'Brien]

Tim,
Yes. The Aperions came with a free speaker cable package, which included 100 feet of Monster 12 ga. speaker cable, 10 banana plugs, and Monster 300 subwoofer cable, (with a "Y" connection included).

It was a nice starting package, although I needed to purchase another 100 feet of 12 ga. cable, another 10 banana plugs, and I opted for 18' feet of subwoofer cable, instead of the 12' that came with the speakers. The 12' initially fell short and placed the sub in front of a low window. Every time I played an action movie, I watched my vertical blinds blow apart like Moses separating the seas. It really rattled the window, so I opted for the longer length to get the sub back in front of solid wall again.

When I first saw the length of speaker cable supplied I thought that 100' would surely suffice for a 14'x 20' room, however I ran cable outlets in the walls, and made sure I matched my longest run of cable for all 5 speakers. Suddenly it added up quickly. The speaker outlets were nice when it was said and done. A lot neater than long runs of cable along the baseboards, and if I need to move the speakers out of the way, they conveniently unplug with the banana plug connections into the walls.

 

[TimGRA]

Sounds like a very nice set up. Just wanted to be sure you were using the "Y" adapter. The difference with or without it will be very noticeable.

Does the sub have phase control and if so have you set that?

 

[Jamie Peters]

Going to go pick up my TV tonight... I am pumped.... This will be a VERY long work day....

Back on the Audio questions that I started in this post. I did some measuring this weekend and it looks like my main front speakers would sit about 13 feet from my main listening position. The left surround would be about 6.5 ft and my back surround (if I do 6.1 or 7.1) would be directly behind me at 5 ft. It is the Right surround that I have a question about. Remember, I have an L shaped family room. With this being said, the RT surround would be 16.5 ft from my main listening positon. I down loaded the 701 users guide and noticed that you could set the speaker distances for EACH surround individually. So, If I set these distances will I get good results with the RT surround being so far away as compared to my Left and Back surround? It would impossible to put the RT surround at the same distance as my Left. This would require a very tall speaker stand right in the middle of the floor. My wife is a great girl but I KNOW this will not fly....

Opinions?

Thanks,
Jamie

 

[TimGRA]

Jamie,
Your question about your rear surrounds. The receiver will take into effect the distance differences. Basically that setting is giving you the proper delays for surround sound.

After you set the distance you will then need to calibrate with the SPL meter from Radio Shack. This is a step that most new comers don't figure out until long after they have set there room up.

The distance is set from your optimum listening position. Remember on the couch where we put the sub? That is the spot to measure from the speaker. If you already new or figured that out then great.

 

[Jamie Peters]

Thanks Tim. No I didn't know that until I started reading on this forum. I plan to do that..... Man, I have learned a lot here and I am still rather ignorant on the subject...

So, you don't think that the differences in the distance 16.5 ft vs. 6.5 ft will make the rt surround sound bad/funny/absent as long as I set the receiver up correctly?

Jamie

 

[TimGRA]

would it be my preference to get them closer? Yes, but if your room does not allow that is why you have the ability to set each speaker distance.

What speaker you decide to go with will help as well. Single pole or bi-pole. I would suggest bi-pole. Go to the speaker forum and search the difference.

DUDE, why are you even on the forum tonight with the BIG tv purchase!

 

[Jamie Peters]

They are not going to bring the TV until today.... I got free delivery and I felt I would let them break their back or drop the TV instead of me!!! Man, I can't wait....

Thanks for the advice on the single/Bi - pole. I will read about this as well...

Has anyone heard anything good/bad about the Polk 7200 or 7600 HT Speaker Package? I heard them in the store today and they sounded pretty amazing.... Smaller than the RTi4 Surrounds as well.....

Jamie

 

[TimGRA]

Jamie,

I will let someone else chime in on the Polk's.

Personally I have never been a real fan of there low end, but their higher end has sounded pretty good.

IM a little bias to the brands that are not so name recognized. I think there are better out there for the money, but again I say, its your ears and be confident in that.

 

[Sean_P_O'Brien]

Jamie and Tim,
I've been away for a few days, and see that the conversation continued with great input all round. I can only support Tim's assessment of the receiver calibration (for distance) followed up with the speaker calibration (for spl).

Jamie - Ultimately your own room acoustics will tell all, including any noticeable reverb, but I suspect you will not notice an appreciable difference with the distances noted in your original post. The SPL meter, combined with a calibration disk such as AVIA, which also checks echo and reverb, should help immensely once the speakers are set up.

BTW, I've discovered this recently with the purchase of a THX recorded dvd, that they include a THX optimizer in the main menu. (I'm sure this was discussed thousands of times before on this forum, however I am still fairly new myself). This optimizer performs some of the same video/audio checks that the AVIA disk does, albeit in a much more general way. It's not nearly as complete as the AVIA, but if you have a THX movie, it could serve useful as an early system check to hold you over. Either way, rely on something beyond the initial calibrations of the Onkyo receiver. I initially calibrated the setup based on the Onkyo's pink noise levels that rotated around the 5.1 system, but still found myself tweaking it when the AVIA disk arrived.

Tim - you had asked about the woofer cable and phase control. I definitely have the cable split at the source with the "Y" connector. And the woofer has a variable phase control (0-180). I must admit however that I have it set on the system's recommended setting of "0" and did not notice much difference when I tried to calibrate at alternate levels. I'm not sure if I missed something along the way or not. I calibrated for 0/90/180 and did not see any significant drop off in levels or tones, even as the rolling signals went from 200 Hz down to 20 Hz. I heard a seamless transition at the crossover point (80Hz) and began to feel more of the sound than hear it at the low intervals within the 20s. Otherwise I thought everything appeared normal as calibrated.

If you have any pertinent advice to offer as a follow up, I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[Jamie Peters]

Thanks Tim and Sean....

I am thinking that I will try the 6.5 ft and 16.5 ft for my surrounds first and then calibrate with a SPL and AVIA or DVE. If that doesn't work out, I will return the surrounds for a pair of Bi-poles and place on the back wall pointing forward and try again....

Tim,
What other speakers do you recommend besides the ones we have already talked about?

BTW, I REALLY appreciate all the help/comments/opinions you guys have supplied.... Without this forum, I definitly would have went out and bought something I would not have been happy with.......

 

[TimGRA]

Sean,
Good to see you. Lets make sure we are not confusing terms. Crossover is different than phase control.

The easiest way to explain phase control and what it does is tell you it controls the bass waves. Your main speakers are sending out bass waves and you do not want your sub to fight or clash with those bass waves. I have been taught and have found that the easiest way to adjust phase takes two people. Put in some stereo music with allot of bass. With one person sitting in the optimum listen position, ie; the couch, and the other at the subwoofer, the person at the subwoofer begins to SLOWLY rotate the phase control button from 0 to 180. At some point during the rotation you should hear the bass become a little louder and possibly smoother. At that point the sound waves from your sub and the sound waves from your mains have found a nice marriage. You have just successfully set your phase control. Some room characteristics may cause there to be no change in the sound. You will just have to see.

Jamie,
I cannot remember what speakers I recommended to begin with. Please remind me. Its been along week on the road for business an my brain is begining to cramp.

Sorry for the poor grammar in the paragraph on phase control. I KNOW YOU ARE WATCHING CHRIS HEFLEN!

 

[Sean_P_O'Brien]

Tim,
Thanks for that advice. I'll work with my wife on the phase adjustments. Of course I know she'll do it reluctantly since it will open up the opportunity for me to play my action movies even that much louder! Yet she still remains supportive, so I cannot complain. I'm jus thankful the she and my 16 month daughter both sleep soundly, so I can take advantage of the system late at night (once in a while).