My 2 cents worth on “Brothers Grimm” (1 Viewer)

[haineshisway]

So then how did they have the 65mm elements for Trail in 1991 but not have them for the Blu-ray. You do understand, none of this makes a whit of sense. I understand the resolution of laserdisc and DVD, which begs the question, why bother to transfer at all from large format in those days unless the large format was a different cut - certainly in the case of 2001 and West Side Story there was only one cut so why bother if it all boils down to SD and crappy-looking?

 

[William Moore]

Unfortunately, there will be zero movement on this title unless and until Warner amends its policy to allow for relaxing their standards for special exception titles. They only are willing to do work in-house, but do not have a cost-efficient method for restoring this title at their own facilities. At present time, they have shown zero interest in doing so, and as the owner of this title, they are obviously free to do with it as they wish. They are unwilling to allow anyone else to work on it. So, permanent stalemate.

Correction: WB only owns 50% of this title, with Cinerama Inc.owning the other half and since ALL of the other Cinerama titles have been remastered very successfully and released on BD, I don't know why this would be the only Cinerama production "left out in the cold with no hope of ever being rescued." Furthermore, it seems to me that none of the Cinerama BD titles ever "flew off the shelves" after being released and were perhaps only purchased by dedicated fans, but that didn't stop the efforts to restore them...sales or no sales. It was due to someone seeing the value in restoring these productions for future generations to enjoy. "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" is certainly deserving of such an encore!

 

[haineshisway]

Oh dear. There is an expression in the show business: "Walk away" which is what I'm about to do. We're not talking about the travelogues here, William, we're talking about films that are now owned by Warners, who will not outsource them - two films - How the West Was Won, which they did because that's always been a good seller for them, and Brothers Grimm, which they haven't because it requires much more work than West.

I don't live in Fantasyland but am happy for those who do Warners CONTROLS the two titles. End of story. Write them endlessly. I'm sure I know how that will go.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Correction: WB only owns 50% of this title, with Cinerama Inc.owning the other half and since ALL of the other Cinerama titles have been remastered very successfully and released on BD, I don't know why this would be the only Cinerama production "left out in the cold with no hope of ever being rescued." Furthermore, it seems to me that none of the Cinerama BD titles ever "flew off the shelves" after being released and were perhaps only purchased by dedicated fans, but that didn't stop the efforts to restore them...sales or no sales. It was due to someone seeing the value in restoring these productions for future generations to enjoy. "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" is certainly deserving of such an encore!

I did know that WB owns half the title, but since they control the physical assets and would need to sign off on any release, I was concerned mentioning that would just create more confusion.

Let me be clear: I am 100% in favor of a release of this title. I have spoken many times about my feelings on Warner's policies and release requirements. But it doesn't matter what I think. This title cannot be released on physical media without Warner's approval, and they will not approve anything short of perfection, nor will they allow anyone else (including the Cinerama folks who own 50% of the copyright) to work on it or release it. Therefore, the result is the same - it's not coming out on disc in the foreseeable future.

 

[Tommy R]

I'd buy any level of quality release of this film on disc. I only own it on VHS and would have to unpack my VCR from storage to watch it. I have every other George Pal production on DVD (plus The Time Machine on Blu-ray). But I guess it'll never be. Good to know it's going to air soon on TCM. I'll record it and see if I can just keep it on my DVR forever, at least as long as I have my current provider. Is it definitely airing in it's correct aspect ratio? I've done my best trying to follow this thread, but there's so much info and hard to remember everything.

 

[cinemiracle]

Correction: WB only owns 50% of this title, with Cinerama Inc.owning the other half and since ALL of the other Cinerama titles have been remastered very successfully and released on BD, I don't know why this would be the only Cinerama production "left out in the cold with no hope of ever being rescued." Furthermore, it seems to me that none of the Cinerama BD titles ever "flew off the shelves" after being released and were perhaps only purchased by dedicated fans, but that didn't stop the efforts to restore them...sales or no sales. It was due to someone seeing the value in restoring these productions for future generations to enjoy. "Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm" is certainly deserving of such an encore!

All we have to do is wait for a change in Warner's management and hopefully they will have an interest in restoring TWWOTBG

 

[DP 70]

Lets all hope they are a Cinerama fan

 

[William Moore]

I really wish that David Strohmaier would "weigh in" on this. Perhaps he knows things that we don't. David....?

 

[RolandL]

I really wish that David Strohmaier would "weigh in" on this. Perhaps he knows things that we don't. David....?

He did on post #20 and said the following:


The Grim truth about “Brothers Grimm”

The ownership and copyright of both dramatic Cinerama titles “HTWWW” and “Brothers Grimm” is shared 50-50 between (formally MGM) now Warner Bros. and Cinerama Inc. As part of the major Cinerama revival efforts done starting in 2000 I have had first hand knowledge of the condition of all the Cinerama elements which include “Brothers Grimm” even though it has been vaulted at Warners. At that time I represented the 50% owner of the title, Gunther Jung, also of Cinerama Inc. and John Sittig, Director of Cinerama Inc. and myself along with Warner’s Dick May, now retired, did several photo chemical tests at Crest labs in 2002 of the water damaged sections and the availability and condition of the o-neg elements. I had received a copy thru Dick of the 1995 o-negative inspection reports where multiple problems such as this damage was listed. A little less than half of the rolls had notations of moderate to severe water damage due to a flood in one of the vaults years earlier. We did print up one small 300 foot section of a water damaged panel and found that the damage was mostly on the left edge, but other rolls could be on different sides. We also found there were a few rolls of missing o-negatives, but we never got around to checking on the YCM separation masters to see if they were complete or not. We had found earlier that the Cinerama travelogues did not all have complete sep. masters so perhaps Grimm has them complete?

Assuming the sep masters are complete then yes a restoration could be accomplished on “Grimm” however just imagine the expense of 9 B&W film frame elements (Y-C-M x3) to create 1 Cinerama 3-panel frame on the screen. Then if there is any shrinkage problems of the Y-C-M elements (as in misregistration) you would have one huge budget problem or the most expensive restoration/scanning job ever to end up with digital elements such as we have done with the travelogues.

On our Cinerama travelogue restorations we were fortunate to have the Library of Congress 3-panel deposit Eastmancolor faded prints available to scan our missing sections and then rebuild back the color, however as I understand it from my pals at LOC there is no 3-panel 6-perf IB prints of “Grimm” on deposit which could possibly fill in any missing and damaged areas. They only have the 35mm scope general release version.

Is “Brothers Grimm” digitally restorable? I would say the answer is possibly but a very hesitant yes. However it should be understood that it might not look as pristine as “HTWWW”. FYI -the o-negs on “HTWWW” were in excellent condition when we started printing up the answer print at Crest labs back in 2001. Warner Brother’s digital transfer work was started in 2006 from this same element for the blue ray release in the fall of 2008. This neg did not need very much clean up or digital restoration work. Blending the 3-panels back together again was a major part of that work.

The reason I say possibly yes is that after our “Windjammer” Cinemiracle experience - dealing with such severe damage, shrinkage, fading, dirt, chemical blotches, warpage, missing panels vinegar syndrome and even entire rolls missing, nothing can ever scare me again. “Windjammer” turned out better than we could ever have imagined.

In a nutshell -this is how I would approach “Grimm” without a 1.5+ mil budget: For starters carefully scan the Bradford UK IB tech 3-panel Cinerama 6 perf. print as well as some IB Tech 6 perf. elements we have recently located in Sweden. Then add in what is still usable of the o-negs favoring them where possible. In areas that simply cannot be saved then go from the YCM seps. Perhaps as a last resort, for troubled areas, use the 65mm IP, an optical created from the 3-panels at Metrocolor labs in the 1960s, this apparently has no cropping on the sides. If that element is used then attempt some better panel blending tricks on the optical printer join areas.

Then a very slow and difficult 3-panel blending operation, clean up, dust busting and flicker removal. Finally the blending (color and density etc.) of the various composite 3-panel source materials to facilitate in minimizing the “checkerboard” look of these different elements. Thus make it as close as possible to appear like it’s all from one basic source. A challenge for sure!

 

[RolandL]

..Good to know it's going to air soon on TCM. I'll record it and see if I can just keep it on my DVR forever, at least as long as I have my current provider. Is it definitely airing in it's correct aspect ratio?

The prologue and opening credits are probably the full 3-panel Cinerama AR. The rest is cropped to about 2.35.

 

[William Moore]

He did on post #20 and said the following:


The Grim truth about “Brothers Grimm”

The ownership and copyright of both dramatic Cinerama titles “HTWWW” and “Brothers Grimm” is shared 50-50 between (formally MGM) now Warner Bros. and Cinerama Inc. As part of the major Cinerama revival efforts done starting in 2000 I have had first hand knowledge of the condition of all the Cinerama elements which include “Brothers Grimm” even though it has been vaulted at Warners. At that time I represented the 50% owner of the title, Gunther Jung, also of Cinerama Inc. and John Sittig, Director of Cinerama Inc. and myself along with Warner’s Dick May, now retired, did several photo chemical tests at Crest labs in 2002 of the water damaged sections and the availability and condition of the o-neg elements. I had received a copy thru Dick of the 1995 o-negative inspection reports where multiple problems such as this damage was listed. A little less than half of the rolls had notations of moderate to severe water damage due to a flood in one of the vaults years earlier. We did print up one small 300 foot section of a water damaged panel and found that the damage was mostly on the left edge, but other rolls could be on different sides. We also found there were a few rolls of missing o-negatives, but we never got around to checking on the YCM separation masters to see if they were complete or not. We had found earlier that the Cinerama travelogues did not all have complete sep. masters so perhaps Grimm has them complete?

Assuming the sep masters are complete then yes a restoration could be accomplished on “Grimm” however just imagine the expense of 9 B&W film frame elements (Y-C-M x3) to create 1 Cinerama 3-panel frame on the screen. Then if there is any shrinkage problems of the Y-C-M elements (as in misregistration) you would have one huge budget problem or the most expensive restoration/scanning job ever to end up with digital elements such as we have done with the travelogues.

On our Cinerama travelogue restorations we were fortunate to have the Library of Congress 3-panel deposit Eastmancolor faded prints available to scan our missing sections and then rebuild back the color, however as I understand it from my pals at LOC there is no 3-panel 6-perf IB prints of “Grimm” on deposit which could possibly fill in any missing and damaged areas. They only have the 35mm scope general release version.

Is “Brothers Grimm” digitally restorable? I would say the answer is possibly but a very hesitant yes. However it should be understood that it might not look as pristine as “HTWWW”. FYI -the o-negs on “HTWWW” were in excellent condition when we started printing up the answer print at Crest labs back in 2001. Warner Brother’s digital transfer work was started in 2006 from this same element for the blue ray release in the fall of 2008. This neg did not need very much clean up or digital restoration work. Blending the 3-panels back together again was a major part of that work.

The reason I say possibly yes is that after our “Windjammer” Cinemiracle experience - dealing with such severe damage, shrinkage, fading, dirt, chemical blotches, warpage, missing panels vinegar syndrome and even entire rolls missing, nothing can ever scare me again. “Windjammer” turned out better than we could ever have imagined.

In a nutshell -this is how I would approach “Grimm” without a 1.5+ mil budget: For starters carefully scan the Bradford UK IB tech 3-panel Cinerama 6 perf. print as well as some IB Tech 6 perf. elements we have recently located in Sweden. Then add in what is still usable of the o-negs favoring them where possible. In areas that simply cannot be saved then go from the YCM seps. Perhaps as a last resort, for troubled areas, use the 65mm IP, an optical created from the 3-panels at Metrocolor labs in the 1960s, this apparently has no cropping on the sides. If that element is used then attempt some better panel blending tricks on the optical printer join areas.

Then a very slow and difficult 3-panel blending operation, clean up, dust busting and flicker removal. Finally the blending (color and density etc.) of the various composite 3-panel source materials to facilitate in minimizing the “checkerboard” look of these different elements. Thus make it as close as possible to appear like it’s all from one basic source. A challenge for sure!

Roland: I have read and re-read this post and most of the others in this thread several times. I just thought that David might have some suggestions on how he might deal with the studio were he so inclined to embark on a restoration project as well as how to obtain financing. I would think that Warners would jump at the chance to allow him to work on this.

 

[William Moore]

I'd buy any level of quality release of this film on disc. I only own it on VHS and would have to unpack my VCR from storage to watch it. I have every other George Pal production on DVD (plus The Time Machine on Blu-ray). But I guess it'll never be. Good to know it's going to air soon on TCM. I'll record it and see if I can just keep it on my DVR forever, at least as long as I have my current provider. Is it definitely airing in it's correct aspect ratio? I've done my best trying to follow this thread, but there's so much info and hard to remember everything.

Tommy: I have the US release version of "Brothers Grimm" on LD which I would be willing to sell for a reasonable price.

 

[Robin9]

I would think that Warners would jump at the chance to allow him to work on this.

Really? What has Warners done to persuade you of this? Mr. Strohmaier, incidentally, has told us that he is now retired and is enjoying being retired.

 

[haineshisway]

Really? What has Warners done to persuade you of this? Mr. Strohmaier, incidentally, has told us that he is now retired and is enjoying being retired.

You're not gonna win here. If someone doesn't want to hear what is said repeatedly then it's a losing game to keep responding. The idea of someone at Warners "jumping at the chance" about anything done out of their purview is hilarious and other things.

 

[RolandL]

Roland: I have read and re-read this post and most of the others in this thread several times. I just thought that David might have some suggestions on how he might deal with the studio were he so inclined to embark on a restoration project as well as how to obtain financing. I would think that Warners would jump at the chance to allow him to work on this.

No they wouldn't. They have this title and many others (Raintree County, numerous 3D titles, etc.), that they know someone else could do a video restoration for penny's on the dollar but they are not interested. We have been talking about these titles for many years and nothing ever gets done by the studios.

 

[William Moore]

Really? What has Warners done to persuade you of this? Mr. Strohmaier, incidentally, has told us that he is now retired and is enjoying being retired.

Well, in post #20, his comments didn't lead me to believe that he has retired!

 

[William Moore]

You're not gonna win here. If someone doesn't want to hear what is said repeatedly then it's a losing game to keep responding. The idea of someone at Warners "jumping at the chance" about anything done out of their purview is hilarious and other things.

Doesn't sound very funny to me!

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Whether Mr. Strohmaier is retired or not is completely irrelevant to the discussion. Warner is unwilling to restore it themselves at the high price point their internal restorations cost, and are unwilling to allow anyone else to work on it either. They are unwilling to release any physical product or license out any title which has less than perfect quality, which means that they would not allow Mr. Strohmaier to do the kind of restoration work he has done on the other Cinerama travelogue titles, because that goes against their own policy.

Any which way you slice it, this title is stuck in limbo and will remain there for the foreseeable future.

All of this has been discussed multiple times, in this thread and in many other threads.

I'll step aside from this discussion as there's nothing further I can add.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

You're not gonna win here. If someone doesn't want to hear what is said repeatedly then it's a losing game to keep responding. The idea of someone at Warners "jumping at the chance" about anything done out of their purview is hilarious and other things.

Persistence of refuted beliefs strikes again.

 

[rsmithjr]

The one thing history has proven about the studios is that they can change their management teams and attitudes in a split second.

Skouras is out, Zanuck is back in. He hires his son Richard, who turns out to be a Wunderkind. Even Cleopatra finally makes a few bucks.

1. New execs can come along and decide that they are not monetizing many assets and that there is money to be made by licensing just like the other studios are doing. Grimm makes the cut.
2. David Strohmaier is contacted and decides that he really would like to finish all of the Cinerama movies, especially with a prospect of more money than he previously received for his efforts.
3. A few years later, we have Grimm on 4K, and perhaps HTWWW as well.

The only problem is that, the longer we wait, the less likely this is to happen. But it is possible. Even Universal cleaned up its act!