Disney+ Marvel's WandaVision (1 Viewer)

[Tommy R]

I loved it all.

My only complaints - Darcy needed to have a bigger part in the end. More the one thing she did. Agatha seemed a bit too one dimensional at the end. I hoped there was more for her after the battle. The only bright side is that hopefully she will be consulted by Wanda at a later time.

I can totally picture a Hannibal Lekter/Clarice scene with them!

And yeah, Darcy deserved more at the end.

 

[Sean Bryan]

Did a second watch and it really was a very good finale and a great miniseries.

Wanda and Agatha’s confrontation was very cool. I’d say my favorite moment was right at the start when she smashed her with the car. Of course Agatha’s whole goal there was to goad Wanda into attacking her because any direct magical attack would lead to draining more power from Wanda. So of course Wanda had to out magic her, not out fight her, to win. I suspected that Agatha’s lesson about the runes would come back to bite her. I do wish they didn’t re-telegraph that by putting it into the “previously on” opening of the episode.

The homage to The Incredibles with Wanda and her boys was nicely done.

The conflict between Vision and The Vision was cool as well. It was straight up disturbing when The Vision started to squeeze Wanda’s head, and a great heroic Marvel timely rescue as Vision smashed him away. This had some great visuals, but of course with them both being evenly matched in ability there wouldn’t be a direct physical resolution to their conflict. So it was great that the resolution came not from a fight but from Vision being able to reach The Vision through reason and a philosophical discussion about the ship of Theseus and the nature of what they are. Gotta roll my eyes at the “typical Marvel” fight comments.

So now The Vision (white Vision) has his memories from his life. But I don’t believe he is just “Vision restored”. He has lost something, something significant. He doesn’t have any of what the Mind Stone contributed to his sentience. So I think he’ll be cold and relatively emotionless. Will he still find his way back to Wanda? Will he want to? Will Wanda ever be able to use “the piece of the Mind Stone that is inside her” that became “Westview Vision” to restore that essence to The Vision? It would have been nice to have one more, if only brief, moment with this new Vision before he flew off. But this wasn’t his story, it was Vision’s story.

I’m glad that Agatha wasn’t killed, because I’m sure she’ll be an interesting character to revisit from time to time. She could be a Loki-like character that is generally an antagonist but that also can be helpful sometimes. I wouldn’t be surprised to see her in a Doctor Strange movie.

Wanda had such a rough road here. Out of extreme grief and not understanding her power she unknowingly created this ideal sitcom fantasy world to live in with her “family”. She screwed up pretty badly. She didn’t realize that she was essentially torturing the townsfolk, and when that would be brought to her attention to some degree she basically didn’t want to believe it and put the blinders on and retreated back into the fantasy. She didn’t want to hurt any of these people, but she also was so deep in the grief fantasy that she didn’t want to accept that she could be hurting them when confronted with that. But when the curtain was fully lifted for her, she knew that she had to end it and let them all go. Even then, her outburst and attack on them as they stressed her showed just how much she can’t control this power she doesn’t understand. She knows she’s dangerous and that she has to learn to understand magic and her power so that she isn‘t. Then again, she’s told that she’s destined to destroy the world. So that’s another bit of nice baggage to pick up.

It was very cool, and kind of creepy, at the very end when she was at the cabin and astral projecting to read the Darkhold. The use of Doctor Strange’s theme in this scene was great. The Darkhold seems like a dangerous source of education for such a powerful witch, so it seems likely that this may be the way in which her story and Strange’s story intersect in Doctor Strange 2. Her hearing the voices of her boys crying out is likely to be significant there.

The whole emotional climax when Wanda told Vision she “could fix everything, but not for them” was heartbreaking and very well done. Their final walk back home as a family, Wanda and Vision’s goodbye to their boys putting them to bed, and Wanda and Vision’s goodbye to each other really got me. Wanda had finally accepted her loss, and yet she now had to endure more. Yet, she’s at a better place to carry that grief forward. maybe one of the most emotionally touching scenes in the whole MCU, at least for me.

I thought it was odd that Darcy didn’t have a closing moment. She didn’t need more than one or two lines, but she had a decent role in collaboration with Jimmy and Monica and then Vision, so a final brief wrap up appearance and line from her was expected and its absence drew attention to itself, especially because they had to use a line of dialogue to explain why she wasn’t there. I suspect that midcredits scene was maybe done in reshoots during COVID restrictions and there may have been some travel/quarantine issues that made it difficult for Kat Dennings to be there.

I posted earlier my frustrations regarding Ralph Bohner, so no need to repeat them. I wish they didn’t do that, but the show remains a very satisfying success despite that odd choice.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I posted earlier my frustrations regarding Ralph Bohner, so no need to repeat them. I wish they didn’t do that, but the show remains a very satisfying success despite that odd choice.

I think they could have done that in exactly the way they did it and had it be satisfying if they used any other actor besides Evan Peters in the role. Agatha could have "recast Pietro" with any other male actor of the approximate age who had never been Quicksilver before. But the producers of this show knew that casting Evan Peters would get a rise out of fans. Especially because this is leading into a movie with the word multiverse literally in the title, they used him with the full awarenesses that we would think they were opening a door for the Fox X-Men universe to become parallel canon. So even though Peters did a good job in the role, I think using him as a bait-and-switch was a bit mean and unfortunate. Everything else in the show was constructed with such specificity and purpose that using Peters solely in service of a "boner" joke sticks out as a sore thumb.

 

[Sean Bryan]

I think they could have done that in exactly the way they did it and had it be satisfying if they used any other actor besides Evan Peters in the role. Agatha could have "recast Pietro" with any other male actor of the approximate age who had never been Quicksilver before. But the producers of this show knew that casting Evan Peters would get a rise out of fans. Especially because this is leading into a movie with the word multiverse literally in the title, they used him with the full awarenesses that we would think they were opening a door for the Fox X-Men universe to become parallel canon. So even though Peters did a good job in the role, I think using him as a bait-and-switch was a bit mean and unfortunate. Everything else in the show was constructed with such specificity and purpose that using Peters solely in service of a "boner" joke sticks out as a sore thumb.

Fingers crossed that Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield don’t show up in “Spider-Man: No Way Home” only to be cameos as the Bohner Brothers pizza delivery guys.

It’s Pizza Time!

 

[Sean Bryan]

So the powerful book of magic is The Darkhold. In Marvel lore, this a VERY dangerous book. Very dangerous to use. Not just in that it has “bad spells that can hurt people” but the use of it can hurt the user, spiritually.

I‘ve heard it referred to as the polar opposite of Strange’s book of Vishanti.

Of interest, the Darkhold has been used in two Marvel shows previously. The Runaways and Agents of SHIELD. The appearance of the book is different here, suggesting to me those shows aren’t really MCU cannon. But there were already plenty of other things that suggest that already so it’s not that surprising.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Of interest, the Darkhold has been used in two Marvel shows previously. The Runaways and Agents of SHIELD. The appearance of the book is different here, suggesting to me those shows aren’t really MCU cannon. But there were already plenty of other things that suggest that already so it’s not that surprising.

As you know, Kevin Feige was not involved with those shows. They were made by Marvel Television under the supervision of Jeph Loeb. I think it is clear that Feige has decided to ignore them now that everything is being done under his purview at Marvel Studios. I don't think Feige will allow himself to be beholden to anything that he wasn't involved with if he wants to do it in a different or, presumably to him, better way.

At most, the multiverse concept could allow him to spin those into their own separate strand of the multiverse for those who care about them. But Feige obviously doesn't.

For purpose of full disclaimer, I don't either. Though I understand that those shows have their fans and whatever makes people happy is fine, it never sat well with me that Agents of SHIELD brought Coulson back to life and I dropped out of that show after only a few episodes. His death was the biggest surprise in and the emotional center of The Avengers, and bringing him back undoes the significance of his sacrifice. So I personally have been pretending that the Marvel Television productions don't exist for years and I'm perfectly fine continuing to do so. For others who are attached to them, I understand why that might suck. But it doesn't bother me.

 

[Sean Bryan]

As you know, Kevin Feige was not involved with those shows. They were made by Marvel Television under the supervision of Jeph Loeb. I think it is clear that Feige has decided to ignore them now that everything is being done under his purview at Marvel Studios. I don't think Feige will allow himself to be beholden to anything that he wasn't involved with if he wants to do it in a different or, presumably to him, better way.

At most, the multiverse concept could allow him to spin those into their own separate strand of the multiverse for those who care about them. But Feige obviously doesn't.

For purpose of full disclaimer, I don't either. Though I understand that those shows have their fans and whatever makes people happy is fine, it never sat well with me that Agents of SHIELD brought Coulson back to life and I dropped out of that show after only a few episodes. His death was the biggest surprise in and the emotional center of The Avengers, and bringing him back undoes the significance of his sacrifice. So I personally have been pretending that the Marvel Television productions don't exist for years and I'm perfectly fine continuing to do so. For others who are attached to them, I understand why that might suck. But it doesn't bother me.

Agents of SHIELD was actually a really good show, and Coulson’s return was done in an interesting way. Early on, the show was absolutely trying very hard to be part of MCU canon. They did stories that would connect on their end to several movies, and Nick Fury, Maria Hill, and the Lady Sif made appearances.

But as time went on they did several big things that just don’t fit with the continuity of the world of the films, each one seemed to indicate more strongly that they were doing their own thing. The biggest boner was when they had a parallel story going on that just couldn’t help but reference how Thanos was attacking, so they firmly cemented WHEN their episode was taking place. And then they ignored the snap, because clearly the TV people weren’t told something like that was going to happen and stick for 5 years. Then later they did time travel in a way that was inconsistent with the rules established in Endgame. The show itself was good and very enjoyable, but it became clear that was operating in its own adjacent cannon. Still, many would argue that it was still officially MCU because Feige never came right out and said that it wasn’t.

So the difference between WandaVision Darkhold and the previous TV appearances is simply another piece of evidence that they are separate for those who still cling to the idea that they stayed part of the main MCU.

I agree that Feige will go with the multiverse concept for some of the actors that he wants to keep for his MCU versions. I expect him to keep Charlie Cox and Jon Bernthal as Daredevil and Punisher, but I don’t expect him to necessarily keep their shows’ history. Those shows will likely be said to be the stories of these characters in another universe, so they can be the same people in the MCU but not have the baggage of the stuff not controlled by Feige.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I agree that Feige will go with the multiverse concept for some of the actors that he wants to keep for his MCU versions. I expect him to keep Charlie Cox and Jon Bernthal as Daredevil and Punisher, but I don’t expect him to necessarily keep their shows’ history. Those shows will likely be said to be the stories of these characters in another universe, so they can be the same people in the MCU but not have the baggage of the stuff not controlled by Feige.

I haven't watched any of the Marvel Netflix shows, but I think the other area of concern with keeping them as canon is their content. I have heard that they are way more adult toned/violent than anything that would be featured in a PG-13 Disney theatrical release. So if he keeps any of those actors, it would need to be done in such a way that any younger audience members don't have to go watch something that is clearly above their age range in order to understand and appreciate what is going on in the main MCU timeline, which is (mostly) family-friendly. That's also an issue they are going to have if they try to bring the Fox version of Deadpool into the MCU and one of the reasons I hope they leave him alone in his own separate space.

As a side note, I do love Charlie Cox in Stardust though, which is a really fun movie if you've never seen it.

 

[jayembee]

So now The Vision (white Vision) has his memories from his life. But I don’t believe he is just “Vision restored”. He has lost something, something significant. He doesn’t have any of what the Mind Stone contributed to his sentience. So I think he’ll be cold and relatively emotionless. Will he still find his way back to Wanda? Will he want to? Will Wanda ever be able to use “the piece of the Mind Stone that is inside her” that became “Westview Vision” to restore that essence to The Vision?

It's not quite that cut and dried. Vision's personality wasn't just a product of the Mind Stone. It was J.A.R.V.I.S. as well, who was already an Artificial Intelligence who could probably have passed a Turing test with flying colors. The Mind Stone turbo-charged what was there, but the there was already there, for the most part.

It's possible that J.A.R.V.I.S.'s code wasn't available to S.W.O.R.D. when rebuilding The Vision, but it seems odd that all of his memories up to his death by Thanos would be there without any trace of J.A.R.V.I.S.

 

[jayembee]

Of interest, the Darkhold has been used in two Marvel shows previously. The Runaways and Agents of SHIELD. The appearance of the book is different here, suggesting to me those shows aren’t really MCU cannon. But there were already plenty of other things that suggest that already so it’s not that surprising.

There's something in the back of my mind that says it was referenced Agent Carter, as well. But I might be confusing it with Darkforce. In Season 2, Whitney Frost was experimenting with something she called "zero matter" which I believe was what Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. called the Darkforce. (Coulson: "Nothing bad ever happens when you work with something called 'Darkforce'.")

I've stopped caring what is or isn't canon with respect to the MCU (or the DCU or Trek or anything of that nature). It's all "one big happy Universe" as far as I'm concerned, and if their inconsistencies, I ignore them.

 

[jayembee]

Though I understand that those shows have their fans and whatever makes people happy is fine, it never sat well with me that Agents of SHIELD brought Coulson back to life and I dropped out of that show after only a few episodes. His death was the biggest surprise in and the emotional center of The Avengers, and bringing him back undoes the significance of his sacrifice. So I personally have been pretending that the Marvel Television productions don't exist for years and I'm perfectly fine continuing to do so. For others who are attached to them, I understand why that might suck. But it doesn't bother me.

That's fine. But you should be aware that it wasn't just a matter of them just saying that Coulson was just "mostly dead", or just "merely dead, not really most sincerely dead" and that was that. His resurrection was dealt with later on, in a really involved way, and was the central conceit for a rather long story and character arc (Tahiti is a magical place).

I don't mean to invalidate your feeling on the matter, but a question: do you feel the same about Spock's resurrection post-Wrath of Khan?

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. wallowed for a while, I think precisely because they really couldn't tie it into the films easily. The logistics just worked against that, similar to the way Chris Carter's plans to have The X-Files segue into the first film -- and then back out again -- because things didn't quite fall into place the way they wanted. But in the second half of the first season, they managed to pull off a lead-in to and lead-out from The Winter Soldier. And the show improved significantly from there. They also managed to cleverly lead into Age of Ultron late in the second season, as well (did you ever wonder how the Avengers knew where Strucker's base was to attack it?)

 

[Sean Bryan]

I haven't watched any of the Marvel Netflix shows, but I think the other area of concern with keeping them as canon is their content. I have heard that they are way more adult toned/violent than anything that would be featured in a PG-13 Disney theatrical release. So if he keeps any of those actors, it would need to be done in such a way that any younger audience members don't have to go watch something that is clearly above their age range in order to understand and appreciate what is going on in the main MCU timeline, which is (mostly) family-friendly. That's also an issue they are going to have if they try to bring the Fox version of Deadpool into the MCU and one of the reasons I hope they leave him alone in his own separate space.

As a side note, I do love Charlie Cox in Stardust though, which is a really fun movie if you've never seen it.

I’ve heard they may keep some of the mature/harder stuff on HULU. I personally think most stuff can be tweaked to work in a “hard PG-13” package on D+. Boba Fett handed out some pretty violent beatings in The Mandalorian. It often just comes down to how much blood is shown. But who knows? It’ll be a while either way I’m sure.

 

[Sean Bryan]

For those (like me) who thought there was more to Señor Scratchy, you were right.

Director Matt Shakman says there was a reveal there that was filmed but was cut.

"We did have a whole sequence where Darcy, Monica, [and] Ralph all meet up with the kids, and they're in Agatha's house, and they think maybe they should steal the Darkhold. They go down there to get the book, and they're reaching for the book, and the rabbit hops up in front of the book."

"They reach over to pat him, and he hisses, and this whole American Werewolf in London transformation happens, and there's this big demon which is [Agatha's] familiar," he continued. "Goonies set pieces ensue as they try to escape from the rabbit."

 

[Nigel P]

Release the Scratchy cut!

 

[TonyD]

I saw something somewhere that the second stinger was meant for Dr Strange and was filmed.

Wish I could find it now.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I saw something somewhere that the second stinger was meant for Dr Strange and was filmed.

Huh? Of course it was filmed. If it wasn't filmed we wouldn't have seen it. Am I missing something here?

It's also possible that it will be in Multiverse of Madness as the introduction of Wanda in that movie. Remember how the tag scene from Ant-Man with Sam saying he knows a guy was pulled out of Civil War.

 

[TonyD]

Dr Strange in place of Wanda

 

[Jake Lipson]

Dr Strange in place of Wanda

Which one? There are two Wandas in the post-credits scene.

 

[TonyD]

Either one or both at the very very end.

Wanda flipping through the Darkhold isn’t much different then when Strange was flipping through all the different ways to a defeat Thanos.

I don’t know where I saw this, as flipping trough a ton of twitters and Discords and what not yesterday.

 

[Sean Bryan]

That’s makes zero sense. It actually makes negative sense.