Just bought a Denon 1600 and have a question. (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Adams]

I am with you Ken. There are certain dvd's I know inside and out and definately know what they sounded like with my old JVC dvd player. I don't know what to think of this either. My problem is a little different than yours though. I still get great LFE from 20-40hz, it's everything above that I am missing. I don't know the exact track numbers but like I said, in The Matrix where Neo is rescuing Morpheus and is shooting the mini gun, that scene used to rumble my entire house. And in Saving Private Ryan, the end battle scene where they ambush the Germans,all the shooting used to feel like it was hitting me in the chest now the only thing that rumbles my house is the explosions. Also when the bombers fly over that used to shake my house now that is gone.

 

[Jeff Adams]

Reggie, How do I adjust the crossover in the receiver?

 

[TommyL]

what about the bass management in the receiver portion...bass peak level...check into it...it may be set way too low? let me know...tl

 

[KenRen]

Well, the latest. I bought another optical cable last night and replaced the monster toslink between the DVD and amp. No change.

Tried diferent de-mod schemes, 5.1, dolby surround, stereo, pure stereo, and several DSPs like rock, stadium, etc. No change.

After careful listening, it really seems like the LFE if gone. I did, as noted earlier in this threat, turn off the sub and put the mains the large to redirect the LFE there. No change.

The 3803 worked flawlessly with my other DVD (Denon 900) in all these modes so it is not the receivers processor. However, I was connected to the digital coax input.

I have tried several of the optical ins on the receiver and there is no change.

This leaves:
1. Problem with the optical out of the Denon DVD 1600, whether it is the actual optical connector or an internal processing fault is unknown.
2. Problem with the optical input of the Denon AVR 3803, whether it is all of the actual optical connectors or an internal processing fault is unknown.

Next test, take the analog outputs from the DVD (right and left RCA (you know, the black and red)) and put them into the RCA analog inputs of the receiver.

I'll keep you posted on the results.

In the mean time, anyone out there using optical inputs on the 3803? Especially from a DVD. Any troubles?

Thanks all,
Ken


In

 

[Brian L]

Next test, take the analog outputs from the DVD (right and left RCA (you know, the black and red)) and put them into the RCA analog inputs of the receiver.

Just to keep repeating myself, PLEASE connect all 6 analogs from the 1600. If you only go stereo, you will likely LOSE the LFE in the player. If memory serves, pretty much all players that downconvert from 5.1 to stereo or Pro Logic will toss the LFE. Using the 6CH outs will be the closest to an apples to apples comparison (still not quite, but closer).

I have to say that I would vote that something in the receiver is amiss. If the player is in fact passing the DD or DTS bit stream, I would expect its an all or nothing proposition.

I may have said this before, but have you set the subwoofer phase? If the sub were out of phase with the mains in the crossover region, you could see a significant suck-out at and around that frequency.

BGL

 

[KenRen]

To Brian L

Sorry dude, didn't mean to ignore you.


Yes, I will try your idea also. Actually gives me another test option. I am short of RCA connects (and already own an extra optical cable just for these tests that I don't need) so I am going to use the 3 RCAs that I have.

I will make the fromt mains (R/L) and the sub connections and give it a try.

Yes, I am aware of all of the setup changes I have to make on the DVD and the amp.

With my receiver sub level at +10 and the SVS amp at 3/4 , if I get low freqs, it will be easy to hear. (Checking my homeowners innsurance policy on window replacement might be a prudent first step!)

I'll report back today.

KenRen

 

[KenRen]

OK fans, et al,

Results:
DVD stereo out RCAs (R/L) to Denon 3803 analog DVD in....
big low freqs, chest crunching, speakers lost edgy crispness. Did we used to listen to stuff this way? wow

DVD stereo out RCAs (R/L) to Denon 3803 analog R/L CD in....
just for fun.....big low freqs, even more of a muddled sound, stereo imaging definitely less.

DVD 5.1 outs (only front 2 mains and sub) to Denon external inputs (letting the DVD DACs do the decoding)......
loss of low freqs (compressed and muddled), but crisp, alive speakers. Same sound as using the problematic optical DVD out.


So there we have it. If it is a receiver problem, then Jeff from Colorado and I, though we have completely different receivers, would have to have optical input connector or processing problems. It would be a remarkable coincidence.

So, I think we have some sort of a low frequency problem with the 1600. Yes I know it is 1 and 0s, not analog output from the optical. Very confusing to me.

Since Jeff and I just bought the 1600s this week, and I have found no other complaints of this nature in this or other forums, perhaps it is only in some sort of new production run problem in units that are just hitting the streets.

For lack of other suggestions, I am going to my dealer today and get this resolved.

Looks like I will have to go back and suffer with the chromo bugged and inferior MPEG decoder DVD 900.

Oh well, I'll just wait until someone comes out with a DVD that has the things I like and dump the 900 like a....well, lets not go there.

Would still like to know if any 3803 users are using any optical inputs? Anyone? (just trying to cover all bases)

Thanks,
KenRen

 

[TommyL]

I had a problem with my sub at one time...and it was the receiver ..bass peak level...fixed that, and now the roof moves! try another dvd player using toslink, and see what happens...that is where I'd start anyways...or bring your 1600 to a friends house, and hook it up there...

 

[Kimo Bonnelycke]

Man, I just got a Denon 1600, and am wondering if I am having this problem. I will check it out when I get home on Monday. Did anybody contact Denon directly about this?

Kimo B.

 

[Lewis Besze]

The receiver can be faulty since you using a different digital hook up.I would try to get a DVD player[maybe a loaner from a dealer?],with both digital connections on board,and try it,until then you can't eliminate the receiver as a culprit.
The 6ch analog connection test isn't conclusive,since most DVD player will limit their voltage outputs[sub ch],so it won't overload the preamp's input stage.But that's another topic.

 

[Kimo Bonnelycke]

Jeff,

Did you ever find a reason for this?

I sent a note to Denon asking them, as I am worried about my player having this issue.

Kimo B.

 

[Jeff Adams]

Okay guys,
I did a lot of playing around with my system yesterday and here is what I did. I went through and reset everything on my receiver. I went to the bass peak level settings and they were at the highest setting but I reset those too. I just manually turned down the volume on my subs all the way and then turned up the bass peak level all the way on my receiver. I have the sub set to +1 on my receiver and I do have the subs turned up manually a little more than I used to. And what do you know,I got my mid level LFE back!!! I got it all back. My room is shaking. Almost too much, but if I turn down the volume on my subs the mid level frequency goes down too,so I keep them both turned up a little more than I used to. I would say that I have both my subs turned up to about 55%, I used to have them set on 50%. I don't know what the deal was. Maybe because I was using an optical input on my receiver that I have never used before,it needed to be set again. Anyway, I am now happy again This is a stellar player. Anyone looking for an outstanding player for video at a very good price and are not concerned with a combo player such as the 2900, I would highly recommend this player.

 

[Checkmate1996]

I recently purchased the denon 1600 and having the exact same problems mentioned. It almost appears that the sound is compressed. No thud, almost flat sounding. So far I'm very disappointed with the sound quality.

KenRen, did you figure your set out?

I have a sony 333ES. My old sony dvps-500d rocked!

 

[KenRen]

Jeff, et al,

I picked up a loaner from my Denon dealer last night and did an A-B. The loaner sounded a bit better, so I kept it and returned my original.

Original - November 2002 build
Loaner (now mine) - September 2002 build.

I also got my old Denon 900 back for additional comparison. Using coax digital connection, sounded pretty good.

Let me be frank. After A-B-C comparison, and changing inputs and settings and crossovers and sub amp levels, I got pretty confused. My ears got to the point where I couldn't tell much of a difference. So, I can't honestly give anyone a good answer as to what is going on.

I am going to try Jeff's suggestion tonight and calibrate with Avia and a sound meter.

I have the SVS 25-31PC+ with the receiver crossover set to 80Hz. The SVS book does say to start with 1/2 to 3/4 amp up which I have never done because it was always too loud. (Is that possible? ha) I had a little feedback problem and working with Ron of SVS we turned the sub amp down to 1/4 and pushed the receiver sub level up. Sounded good on the old DVD and no humm.

So tonight, SVS to 3/4, receiver sub level to -5, and I will start the calibration from there.

PS A word about Avia calibration and meter. I have always calibrated my speakers sitting in the sweet spot on the couch, with the meter held out in front of me so reflections/absorbtions of my body and breathing doesn't add any sound and screw up the cal. (And no, not heavy breathing, for those out there with their mind in the gutter)

After the cal, during my first movie watching, I always immediately started turning down the rear surrounds. Thought it was just me or Avia. Wrong!

You must put the meter very close to where the center of your head would be when you are sitting. Now, I hold the meter at that position and sit way to the side with the meter rotated so I can see the readout.

After cals now, when I sit back in the sweet spot, the surrounds are fine.

Mr. Ohio, would you also try Jeff's suggestion for comparison.

Jeff, what sub(s) are you using? Noticed JeffT of Denon asked you to PM him. Did he have any suggestions? Any other anomalies like ours reported?

Thanks all,
KenRen

 

[Checkmate1996]

Folks,

No doubt about it. The sound from the 1600 is DEFINATELY flat. Here are some of things I tried just last night until 3:00 am. I've also been speaking with Jeff on the side about this subject.

Below is an excerpt of some that conversation:

"...I had my receivers' LFE set a -5; with a range of -7 to 0Db. I am currently using a sony 333es receiver. I am using the DTS/DD on the receiver. My settings were the front speakers were set to small as well as my center channel. Both were set at the receiver with +7db. Like your self, I know matrix inside and out. Prior to making any changes, I noticed the sound was very flat, almost compressed feeling. For example, when neo pounds the hell out of the security guard in chapter 25 I used to get a thump. Now it was bearly audible. Quite disturbing. It seemed that whole range from about 100hz to 500hz was dead. In addition, my LR fronts seemed to be bearly noticeable. For example, when the music kicked for that seen, it was barely definable. It just didn't make sense....however after 2 hours of fooling around until 3am last night...(I changed the following)

I turned the LFE to MAX(ODB)
Turned down the center to +5db
The front LR upto +10db
Cranked the suboutput to +10db
Changed the DVD/Receiver settings for the LRC to LARGE
and it seemed to bring the sound up to a 'respectable' level. However, shouldn't have been this hard to get to average.

BTW, I also noticed my player was manuafactured Feb2002.

 

[TommyL]

Told ya Jeff BTW...if you unplug your sub from the receiver, and set the bass peak level to as high as it'll go, that would be better...its tough to set it to max without doing that...rumbles itself right out the door...try it... tom

 

[Jeff Adams]

Tommy,
Actually all I did was manually turned down the volume on my subs all the way and then set my bass peak level all the way up on my receiver. That worked fine. Then I manually turned up the volume on the subs until I got it where I wanted it.

 

[Jeff Adams]

Hey guys,
Just to make sure I was not just hearing things the other night, I actually got a little time to play around with it yesterday. I watched two movies yesterday. Shrek and XxX Superbit edition. Once again the players picture quality is outstanding! One of the best video processing out there. Now on to the are that was such a problem when I first hooked it up, the audio. After resetting my receiver and recalibrating all of my speakers, I am one happy man! There is definately a lot of low frequence now, even more so than before. My system has never sounded more powerful or detailed. I am at a loss why I had to reset my receiver to get it like this because my receiver is set to the same settings as I had it before but everything is in working order now. When I was watching Shrek, the scene where he is rescuing Fiona from the dragons castle, when they are being chased by the dragon I watched a heavy decoration on my coffee table move around and shake during that scene. So I guess you can say that my LFE is back and better than ever! :b

 

[Checkmate1996]

that's my next step. I going to hit the old reset switch on my receiver and start over...

 

[TommyL]

exactly Jeff...your sub should be about 10 oclock on the knob...