John Williams: Borrows heavily from Gustav Holst? (1 Viewer)

[Justin Doring]

There's a distinct and important difference between being inspired by or influenced by a composer and ripping a composer off. John Williams is an example of the former, while James Horner is an example of the latter. Williams was inspired by Holst and Korngold, among others, when writing Star Wars, while Horner simply steals material from countless composers, thus earning him the honor of being the world's greatest arranger.

 

[Kevin M]

I think Hans Zimmer's "Gladiator" score steals the most from Holst. That I think it is a lot worse than Williams being influenced by Holst.

Yes, I have said this very same thing for years now. If Zimmer had at least admitted the CLEAR Holst influence in his DVD interview section I could except it as just being "influence" or "homage", but he never mentions Mars:The Bringer Of War even once when he discusses the Arena cues.

 

[Steve Christou]

If you want to hear Holst's Mars: Bringer of War in a movie watch The Right Stuff, Bill Conti uses actual bits of Holst's Mars, Jupiter & Venus when John Glenn blasts off into orbit.

 

[Kevin M]

Well yeah, but it was crystal clear that it was Holst that Conti was using. And it might have been the director that insisted on the use of Holst (the most wonderful and appropriate use of Holst's The Planet's since COSMOS IMO).

 

[Tino]

I have both the Star Trek II score and the Aliens score by James Horner and they do NOT share any of the same music.
Similar yes, but as with any composer, their style sometimes makes people think they are repeating. Jeez, Horner, whose work I enjoy, sure is unpopular aroud here.
FWIW, I can usually tell who a film's composer is after a few minutes.

 

[Kevin M]

I have both the Star Trek II score and the Aliens score by James Horner and they do NOT share any of the same music.

I agree with that....besides, along with KRULL they all borrow from his first sci-fi score Battle Beyond The Stars

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

I agree with that....besides, along with KRULL they all borrow from his first sci-fi score Battle Beyond The Stars

Which was, of course, cribbed from Star Trek The Motion Picture and The Day the Earth Stood Still. Sorry, couldn't lay off Horner for very long...

 

[Phil Florian]

Vince...great show, agreed. Nice night for it, too.

Holdadem, it was cheap...for us. We did lawn seats at the outdoor venue. Day of show was...dang, I can't remember. Cheaper than all rock concerts from the same section...and we could bring alcohol and snacks without raising a fuss! I don't know if he does this a lot because the program didn't say much about it. I had assumed it was mostly promotional in that the orchestra rehearses the music for weeks and Williams strolls in day of show and does it and flys out the next day. Evidently, he was around for at least a week working with the musicians, so it is something that he would really need to make some time for. I could see him doing this in a variety of venues, though. Great time.

Sorry about the "Holst's Whore" thing. Was a bit strong, but I wanted to garner some opinions with it. I love Williams...who doesn't? But I was struck by how much sounded like direct readings vs. inspiration when it came to Star Wars and Mars. William's work in the last decade hasn't been as revolutionary or as inspriational, but one of the ones I liked that I didn't think I would was the Far and Away score (didn't see it). It was lovely. And I think the Hedwig theme from Potter was outstanding (and was chilling to hear live, if that makes any sense).

I have two Horner scores, Star Trek 2 and Glory. He steals nicely from Orff's Carmina Burana (sp?) for sure in the finale music but otherwise it is a solid piece of evocative scoring. Star Trek 2 is the same way...it really worked well.

Still mad that Williams didn't do Superman yet exposed us to Hook. Ugh.


Phil

 

[Terrell]

The very first thing I thought of when I listened to the Holst mp3 that Ben provided was Gladiator. Now I love Gladiator and it's score, but it sounded very similar in spots to Holst's Mars composition.

 

[MikeRS]

I imagine Lucas presenting a rough cut with Holst (and others) on temp, and Williams in his brilliance, creating his own unique take within that idiom. I definitely hear "inspired by", not ripping off.

GLADIATOR on the other hand is blatant.

 

[Kirk Tsai]

I don't know how to get into these discussion for the most time. It seems as if most people do not pay attention to the body of work a composer has done, and jumps to a conclusion that he or she has been "heavily inspired" by someone else. But then for the lesser known scores, people claim it hasn't been as "revolutionary or as inspirational," as Phil would put it. Isn't that a bit contradictory? If Star Wars is at least influenced by Holst, why would a score like, say, AI or Minority Report, be less "revolutionary?" If it is, point out where those borrow or are similar from. Another criticism that Williams has suffered from time to time--the idea that he is too bombastic or overbearing--is also undermined by the lack of a comprehensive acknowledgment to his body of work. When Superman is instantly recognizable, it's too much; when audience members can't recall the music for Sabrina, it's unmemorable. Single standard, please.

 

[Kevin M]

I agree with that....besides, along with KRULL they all borrow from his first sci-fi score Battle Beyond The Stars
-------------------------------------------------------
Which was, of course, cribbed from Star Trek The Motion Picture and The Day the Earth Stood Still.

True...of course having said that, KRULL is still one of my favorite scores.
As far as Conti & Kaufman goes, now that you mention it I seem to remember years ago reading that (according to whom or where I can't remember, I think it might have been in Starlog) the conversation about that scene went something like....I really would like something in the spirit of Holst....(after hearing the cue)...yeah..let's just go with Holst. I still like Conti though, I always found him to be underrated.

 

[Steve Christou]

Bill Conti won the Oscar for Best Music for The Right Stuff, basically just for that famous 6min 'Right Stuff Theme' which I love btw, the rest of the score was dotted with classical music. He beat Jerry Goldsmith's superb Under Fire score and John Williams incredible Return of the Jedi music for that year, 1983.
Personally I wanted Goldsmith to win that year, one of his best ever scores.
But The Right Stuff is one of my favorite movies and I badly wanted it to win Best Picture that year, Terms of Endearment won instead (spits).

 

[Ashley Seymour]

who knew that he is the writer of the never completely played Evening News theme that we hear all the time...I think on CBS or NBC)
I love Williams, but I think the NBC Theme it is one of his weakest pieces. I still prefer the older Beethoven theme.
The Battle of Britain from 1969 has a victory theme that sounds very close to Williams piece at the end of Star Wars when our heroes are given medals for saving the galaxy.

 

[Chuck C]

Hey Phil & Vince...just wanted to chime in to say I caught that show too! At one point in the concert, I turned to my friend and said "The bringer of war baby! da da da da-da da,da,da"
Here's an underappreciated thread of mine on a similar topic
Link Removed

 

[David Susilo]

John Williams' Duel of the Fates (or something like that, from The Phantom Menace) is structurally and elementally identical to Mozart's Requiem's Confutatis.

 

[Justin Doring]

Yes, Duel of the Fates is clearly inspired by Mozart's Requiem and especially Orff's Carmina Burana, just as Goldsmith's First Knight and Poledouris' Conan the Barbarian are inspried by the latter piece. Horner's Glory, however, IS Carmina Burana! And that makes all the difference.

 

[Jan Andersen]

I have always thought John Williams was very much "inspired" by Gustav Mahler, especially Mahler's 6'th symphony, when he wrote Star Wars.

 

[Agee Bassett]

The film's main theme is also Prokofiev's Ivan the Terrible (see esp. Ivan's Sickness, andante sostenuto).

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

In the case of the Cleveland show- he did 2 nights back-to-back. The first night was exclusively his non-film compositions (although he did whip out one or two film related ones for an Encore). The second night, he did the Silver Screen show which featured Stuff from Far and Away, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter and a load of others. The performance was several hours long.
I am under the impression that he was in town for a week or two of rehearsals before the 2 night performance.
I think my tickets were around $20 each for lawn tickets (It might have even been like $15). Cleveland has a lovely older outdoor pavilion called Blossom Music Center (which is actually a template on which many of the "shed" pavilions are based)-- huge lawn and a warm wood pavilion.
All in all, an excellent show. I wonder how many HTF'ers there were at Blossom that night!
-V