I need help with my PB-10 ISD! (1 Viewer)

[frank manrique]

"If you think that is big, you need to look at my dual 16-46CS+s"

...or twin B12-Plus/4 "Black Beauties"...and a 16-46 octet assembly...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[Edward J M]

.....or dual PB12-Ultra/2.....

 

[Victor Ferguson]

Vaughn,

I think some bass shakers are what you need. It sounds to me like your number one priority is "feeling" it. I personally would rather something sound really good than shake me around and sound like crud, but everyone has there own tastes. Your not going to get what your looking for from a single 10 inch sub. Putting the sub up against the back of your couch is going to destroy the sound quality from the sub and is a desperate attempt to get some "feeling". Bass shakers are inexpensive compared to getting the quality and quanity of subs needed to get the "feeling" your looking for.

 

[BrianWoerndle]

Do you have pictures of those Frank? Man I feel sorry for your neighbors (two blocks away).

People think I am nust with my subs, I can't imagine the looks on people's faces when they walk in your room.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Hi Victor Ferguson,

I think some bass shakers are what you need.

What would be preferable, a bass shaker that handles frequencies from 15hz and below, or a subwoofer that can reproduce those frequencies?

One problem I can see if using bass shakers, is dialog boom. Would voices sound weird if I use a bass shaker? Can you use a bass shaker to augment the PB-10 ISD from, let's say, 20hz, and below?

Lastly, what are some good quality bass shakers?

It sounds to me like your number one priority is "feeling" it.

Well, yeah. And even though I still haven't calibrated my subwoofer yet, I actually have felt some bass in some movies, but it's very few and far between, though.

Also, I have to play films very, very loud, in order to slightly feel some of the bass.

You know, I think that I will buy myself another PB-10 ISD just because I think it's incredible value for money, and the performance, so far, is extremely good (and that is before calibrating!)

--Sincerely,

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Hi Eric Burg,

I got my pb10 isd about 2 months ago and can tell you that I definitely can "feel" the bass from it.

Well, that's good to hear. Everyone keeps telling me that I shouldn't expect to feel any bass from a single 10" driver.

When playing the pod race scene, you can feel the leather seats vibrate and I even had to add sound damping material onto the back of my Matrix movie poster, because it was vibrating against the wall.

The pod race scene I haven't tried yet. In the demo room we use, two M&K MX-5000's are used, and I definitely feel the bass in that pod race. However, the subwoofer(s) are located directly behind the seating position, 1 meter away, and the room is around 2000 cubic feet.

My room is about 14' x 24', concrete floor with just carpet over the top, no carpet pad. My ceilings vary from 8-10' depending on what part of the room you are standing in.

Sorry, I'm really crappy with measurements, but what is your room size in cubic feet? Thanks.

I have the sub placed about 3 feet from the left front corner, facinging the opposite wall that is about 10 feet away. It is about 9 feet from my seating position.

Wow. So you are feeling the bass, and the subwoofer is around 3 meters away from you? That is quite amazing. My PB-10 ISD is located 2 meters away from me (but it's not in the corner).

It took me a long time to determine the right spot for the sub. Tried the crawling method, random placement, moving it a few inches at a time and measuring with the spl meter.

You know, I haven't tried the crawling method yet. Since I don't have an SPL meter yet, I can't really tell if changing the phase is making a difference.

I have the gain not quite to 50% on the sub and the level on my reciever is set to -3.0. I also had to do quite a bit of tweaking with the phase control.

So, in your room, phase made a big difference? If so, what kind of difference was there? Did the quality of bass change, or was it simply an increase in sound pressure?

I used Avia to initially set the phase, but didn't like the response I was getting when listening to music, so did some adjusting while listening to bass tracks that I was very familiar with.

I don't have Avia at the moment. But I will be getting it soon. My question to you is, has Avia made a huge improvement over your recievers internal test tones? If so, please elaborate.

Thanks for the feedback.

PS Just a question I wanted to ask (to anyone), is there a breaking in period for the PB-10 ISD? Thank you.

--Sincerely,

 

[Victor Ferguson]

Vaughan,
Q:What would be preferable, a bass shaker that handles frequencies from 15hz and below, or a subwoofer that can reproduce those frequencies?
A:A sub preferably but I don't think filling a 3400 cubic foot area with concrete floors and getting the high spl your looking for in the sub 20hz range is in your budget. Concrete floors do not transmit the vibrations you are craving and it takes alot of air moving to achieve what you want.

Q:One problem I can see if using bass shakers, is dialog boom. Would voices sound weird if I use a bass shaker? Can you use a bass shaker to augment the PB-10 ISD from, let's say, 20hz, and below?
A:The whole point of them is to augment those low frequencies and as long as you crossover from around 60hz or below you will be fine.

Q:Lastly, what are some good quality bass shakers?
A:http://www.aurasound.com/

Some final comments: Don't get frustrated, getting a system setup and calibrated is often a very time consuming thing. Experimentation and patience is what it takes. Before you go and set the sub right next to the couch consider adding subs or bass shakers to get the "feeling" your looking for and not sacrifice sound quality to get it.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Thank you for commenting, Victor!

Yeah, you're right, it's completely out of my budget to get the 20hz pants flapping bass in the room my size. I'm 22, living with my parents. lol.

I looked at the link you provided. Interesting. Do you think they can ship those bass shakers to South Africa?

--Sincerely,

 

[Eric Burg]

Vaughn,

My room is just around 2700 cubic feet and it has a door that I shut when watching movies, so other than the small gap at the bottom of the door, there isn't any other openings. I'm not sure how much bass you are wanting to "feel", but even last night I was watching I, Robot and the bass during the opening credits was enough to "feel" some vibration on the back of my leather seats. It didn't shake the room, per se, but you definitely could hear and feel it.

Adjusting the phase didn't seem to really affect the sub 50hz bass, but it did change the level of the bass in the 60-90hz region. I would guess that is from the overlap of frequencies between the mains and the sub. It really doesn't seem to matter much for movies, but definitely made a difference when listening to music. As for Avia, I didn't use it to set up my initial levels. I used the auto calibration on the pioneer 1015. However, I didn't think the reciever did anything for setting up the sub. I used Avia to double check the levels, which were adjusted right. Then, I used the phase adjustment tones to make sure the sub was in phase with the front speakers. I also raised the level of the sub slightly, so it runs about 3db hot. I also used the frequency sweep to see where my deficiencies were at in the bass range and walked around the room to see if there were any spots that sounded better or measured higher on the SPL meter. I personally try and see what sounds best to me first, then use the SPL meter for confirmation.

I think you should try experimenting with different room placements of the sub. The crawling method will get you in the general vicinity and then fine tune from there. I can tell you that moving the seats 1-2 feet or moving the sub 6 inches or firing it a different direction all have a remarkable effect on the sound.

I hope this helps. I do know that your room is much larger than mine and one 10 may just not be enough to get the same "feel" that I get in my room. I can say that there is nothing wrong with this sub and it is capable of going low and loud.

 

[frank manrique]

".....or dual PB12-Ultra/2..... "

...he, he, he...

Hi, Ed!

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Hi Frank,

I just wanted to know, with your particular setup, do you feel bass with every film, or is it only with a specific few?

--Sincerely,

 

[rob-h]

I have 2 of the PB-10 ISD's in a 12x20x8 room. 1 was enough but I had to have overkill! Curently I have them in the front of the room between the front speakers. Running tests at from 20hz to 30hz produces bass you can feel and shakes the entire back wall of my room. Granted, my room is on a second floor with wood construction. I run my subs at 0db and about 60% gain. The second subwoofer does not add much effect in its current position. I plan to move it to the back when my platform is complete. Even with the second woofer off, the subwoofer closest to the right channel produces fantastic bass that can be felt. My Wife thought I was crazy but I wanted more. I also added auroa bass shakers to heighten the effect when the volume is turned down.

 

[John Garcia]

Bass shakers don't make any noise at all, so they won't add anything but vibration to your situation. Won't affect your sound at all, just your butt. That's why they may be the simplest thing to implement. A second PB-10 co-located should add a fair amount of additional output, but with that room, you still may not feel it the way you may be looking to.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Curently I have them in the front of the room between the front speakers. Running tests at from 20hz to 30hz produces bass you can feel and shakes the entire back wall of my room.

How loud do you need to play the 20-30hz tones in order to feel it? The thing is, I'm worried that I might burn the voice coil if I play the tones too loud.

Many people have told me that you can destroy a subwoofer playing test tones too loud. One member on HTS (Home Theater Spot) said that you should only play the low tones for 5 seconds. What am I to do?

Can anyone elaborate on this for me? Thanks.

I run my subs at 0db and about 60% gain.

Do you not find the bass boomy for music, though? I mean, when I put the subwoofer at 40%, with the subwoofer level at 0, it's nice for movies and good for music, but if I up the gain to 50%, it's far, far too much bass for music.

I don't know why. How did you strike a balance? I still haven't calibrated, but I'm beginning to think that even if I did, even if I set the subwoofer to be +3 dB's over my mains, that it would be a bit boomy for music.

Yesterday, I borrowed a SPL meter (not the Radio Shack), but unfortunately I didn't have time to calibrate properly. I did a quick test. All my speaker levels are at 0. I simply turned the master volume on my reciever to 0, and the SPL meter (at the 75dB position), and it showed 75dB's.

With the subwoofer, it also read 75 dB's with the master volume at 0. This is with no adustments made. Nothing. Am I missing something here? Does that mean that my speakers were calibrated correctly?

I don't know.

--Sincerely,

 

[rob-h]

It would be very strange to heave all the speakers at 75db without adding or subtracting from them. That would mean they were all exactly the same distance away from you and that the room had no effect on the sound. Are you measuring at your listening position? I run all but my center at 77db and the rest at 75db. The subs are calibrated to 80db.

I only run the test tones for 5 or 10 seconds at the most just because its annoying and loud.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

Thanks, Rob. It's just that I've heard some people play test tones loud, to see how low their subwoofer goes. But I'm also hearing people say that it's a good way to kill your subwoofer too, so I don't know.

Throughout the thread, I've said that I couldn't feel any bass with my PB10. But what worries me is that even if I'm 1/2 meter away from it, I still can't feel bass from it.

Is something wrong here?

About the calibration, Rob, you say that it's strange to be getting the readings that I am. How should I calibrate my system? I know that I must set the speakers to 75 dB's (with the recievers test tone), but how do I go around doing this?

Must I buy Avia to do this properly, or will my recievers test tones be just as good? I also found it strange that I was getting 75 dB reading with all my speakers (except the right surround speaker) without making any adjustments with the trim levels. Strange, indeed.

All I did was put my master volume at 0, and those were the readings. Perhaps the more experienced users can chime in and explain what is happening here, because I am in the dark at this point.

--Sincerely,

 

[rob-h]

Sit in the seat that you will be in most of the time. Generally the center seat. Start the receivers test tones. Look at the readings you get on the meter. You should have to boost or subtract to get all of the speakers to 75db. The readings are taken at your seat, not directly at the speaker.

Like I said, I like the center and sub a little hot. Avia is a good tool but the receivers test tones will get you to the right levels if you dont have it yet.

 

[CarterT]

From my experience, it is unlikely that you will find the "perfect" settings for your system for music and HT. I have to adjust the LFE level often depending on what the input device and recording is. I calibrated using the RS SPL meter and that works great, most of the time. However, when I play music at high volumes or a recording with a lot of bass, I use the remote and reduce the sub level a little until it sounds right. My receiver always goes back to the calibrated settings after a new input source is chosen.

My room is around 3400 cf with a pier and beam floor. My PB10 is calibrated at 75db, gain 45%, phase 110 deg. and receiver set at -1db. I tried several locations and found the best to be in front just inside my left main and turned 90 degrees facing the right main. JBL S312 front, SCenter, S26 with SCenter rears and the PB10 is plenty for my set up. Lots of good, tight bass and plenty of volume.

As some have said here, it can be a long process to get it the way you like it, be patient.

 

[Edward J M]

Just to be 100% sure there isn't a set-up problem here, this is a list of common subwoofer set-up errors I've seen over the last few years.

At the Pre/Pro:

All speakers set to small.
Crossover set to 80 Hz.
Subwoofer set to on/yes.
"LFE + Mains" or any other channel remix options set to off/no.
Dolby Dynamic Range Compression (DRC) circuit set to off/no.
LFE channel level set to maximum value (usually 0 on a scale of 0 to -10).
THX (or any other) bass limiter circuit set to off/no.
Subwoofer pre-out level to -5 (on a scale of -10 to +10).
THX Ultra 2 Boundary Gain Compensation is switched Off.
Automatic calibration circuits switched off.

At The DVD Player:

Output set to bitstream (via digital coax or toslink) and PCM is not enabled.
Dolby DRC circuit set to off/no.

I've seen many of the above items cause abnormally low output at the subwoofer. I'd say these four are the most common:

1) The DVD player is set to PCM instead of Bitstream, so there is no DD/DTS digital signal being outputted to the pre/pro.

Note, this would be when the pre/pro is handling the DD/DTS decoding and the signal is being carried from the DVD player to the pre/pro via a digital coax cable or a toslink fiber optic cable.

2) Using only the L/R stereo analog outputs from the DVD player, which results in no LFE channel.

Note, this is not the same as someone who deliberately uses the on-board DD/DTS decoders in the DVD player and outputs the entire 5.1 mix via six analog outputs to six dedicated analog inputs at the pre/pro.

3) The Dolby DRC circuit is enabled in either the pre/pro or the DVD player (it's in both locations).

4) The LFE channel attenuation control is being mistaken for the subwoofer channel level control, and the LFE channel is being accidentally attenuated.

 

[John Garcia]

That should say using STEREO analog outputs from the player. Using the m/c analog outputs from a player with built in decoding will still give you LFE.