Hybrid DVD-A in the pipeline..... (1 Viewer)

[Justin Lane]

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=16364224
Check it out. Just received the latest HFR newsletter which had a link to the above article. Maybe this is why Warner was so mum at CES. This would be a big announcement for DVD-A and if all plans were not finalized they could be waiting for a later date. Of note, it mentioned that the initial Hybrids will be dual sided instead of dual layered.
J

 

[LanceJ]

I think dual sided discs might be the better choice anyway becuase dual-layer discs might be troublesome for certain CD or dvd players to read properly.
Also at highfidelityreview.com they mentioned that McIntosh is going to sell a dvd-audio player. To me anyway, that definitely is an authoritative stamp of approval for dvd-audio.
(Trvia note: Audioasylum has setup a separate dvd-audio forum. But the name sucks: "DVD-A Alley".
LJ

 

[Lee Scoggins]

becuase dual-layer discs might be troublesome for certain CD or dvd players to read properly

I don't agree. That has not been the case with Super Audio. Different laser widths are used in the reading so there is no technical problem.
I think this is an unnecessary inconvenience. Now when you are in the car you have to look at what side to face up in the player? The labels will have to be small, probably around interior circle of disc.
DVD Audio continues to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[Philip Hamm]

I agree with Lee. Double sided discs make no sense at all to me.

We are told that although dual-layer technology already exists for putting both DVD-Audio and Redbook CD content on the same side of a disc, initial releases will be dual-sided to insure greatest compatibility and simplicity of use: put in one side for the CD track, and flip it over for the DVD-Audio and DVD-Video content.

Idiotic. that's "simplicity of use"?!?!?!?!?!? Wanna make it simple? Put a BIG HONKIN LABEL on one side and make it so you don't have to think about which side to put on. Idiotic.

 

[Marc Colella]

I don't agree. That has not been the case with Super Audio. Different laser widths are used in the reading so there is no technical problem.

There have been instances where some CD players and DVD players have trouble reading hybrid discs.

 

[Justin Lane]

I don't agree. That has not been the case with Super Audio. Different laser widths are used in the reading so there is no technical problem.

Lee it has been reported that many DVD drives found in computers have had troubles reading Hybrid discs. The players apparently attempt to read the DVD layer (SACD) first then do not attempt to read the CD layer. Since many non-SACD DVD players use computer DVD transports as the basis for their designs these Hybrid discs could cause major problems in the future. Right now we are not really seeing many problems, because the only Hybrid discs widely available have been the Stones, which is where the problems have been noted. The other Hybrids have been generally more expensive and available primarily online, meaning they were bought by people who own SACD players and would not run into problems in playback. When Dark Side of the Moon comes out, I have a suspicion we will see more problems pop up for those attempting to play the discs in computers or DVD players based on computer DVD transports.

J

 

[Shawn C]

If it gets more titles released in DVD-Audio format, then I'm all for it.

 

[Justin Lane]

Idiotic. that's "simplicity of use"?!?!?!?!?!? Wanna make it simple? Put a BIG HONKIN LABEL on one side and make it so you don't have to think about which side to put on. Idiotic.

Philip,

While I will agree with you that I would perfer Single sided dual layer discs, I think the primary problem stems from the way DVD players handle the medium they are presented. When DVD-A Hybrids were first proposed, it was noted that some players first check for a CD inserted while others check for a DVD. If a DVD player checks for the DVD layer first everything should be fine (of course no access to the CD layer), however if the player checked for a CD layer first, users would not have access to the surround tracks in DD or DTS.

This is really the only solution to the problem until manufacturers standardize their hardware operation. Even if that happens, you will still have older DVD players around which could run into troubles. Until DVD-A/Universal players become the norm, and older players are filtered out of the market this will be what we have to deal with.

 

[Justin Lane]

I think this is an unnecessary inconvenience. Now when you are in the car you have to look at what side to face up in the player? The labels will have to be small, probably around interior circle of disc.

If I was involved with the decision making process for DVD-A I would make sure the center Hub on each side of these discs has a distinguishing feature of some sort. Color coding would be a very easy implementation. Something like CD side=red and DVD-A side=blue. Once you learn the coding on your first disc it would be no big deal in the future. Even monkeys can learn color recognition, so I am sure humans could as well.

Of course I am not in charge of decisions on DVD-A, and if the track record of those in charge holds true, we will probably run into really small label you have to read with a magnifying glass to determine which side is what.

J

 

[Phil A]

Double sided discs will certainly cause some misuse. I also wonder what will this do the pricing. DVD-As from audiophile labels like Chesky are already 25% more than their SACDs. Except for Warner, most of the other cos. are already more expensive for their DVD-As. Instead of getting potentially confusing and more expensive stuff out there, DVD-A should be just plain getting more software available from known artists.

 

[Jesse Skeen]

I don't know how you would play the regular CD part if they were dual-layered either. SACD players have a setting so you can tell it which layer to play on hybrid SACD discs, but if a DVD player sees a DVD, it'll stay locked onto that.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

but if a DVD player sees a DVD, it'll stay locked onto that.

So include PCM stereo at 16/48 (or better) on the DVD-V section, and have it play automatically.

 

[Justin Lane]

I don't know how you would play the regular CD part if they were dual-layered either

Jesse,

I was under the assumption that certain DVD players actually checked for a CD first before a DVD, so I guess a dual layer disc would work in this case, however the DVD layer would then never be read. Dual sided discs are the only way to provide Hybrids for DVD-A it appears.

J

 

[Justin Lane]

Aside from the inconvenience of having CD and DVD information on separate sides, a Hybrid DVD-A would be the ultimate audio experience. Think about it, we could get on one disc:

Hi-res Stereo
Hi-res Surround
DD/DTS Surround
Redbook CD
Bonus Material (interviews, lyrics, documentaries)

If pricing remains the same or close to what it is now, Hybrid DVD-A would be an incredible steal in the world of audio.

J

 

[Larry Geller]

That has not been the case with Super Audio. Different laser widths are used in the reading so there is no technical problem.

My freinds Toshiba 3715 changer will not play the Rolling Stones' SACDs, nor will my father's Samsung DVD-VCR combo player. ALL DVD players will play DVD-A, however, at least in some manner.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

My freinds Toshiba 3715 changer will not play the Rolling Stones' SACDs, nor will my father's Samsung DVD-VCR combo player.

Kind of reminds me of those damned copyprotected "CDs" that don't actually play in a lot of computers and some DVD players.

 

[TheLongshot]

A couple of comments:

I have a hybrid SACD, and so far I haven't had a problem playing the CD layer in any player, including computer DVD drives. It doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist, but I haven't experienced it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was older drives that had the problem.

The other thing is, I actually own a CD/DVD disc at home. Nightwish's "Over The Hills And Far Away" came in a limited edition with a DVD side that had clips from their live DVD, so this technology already exists.

Jason

 

[Larry Geller]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was older drives that had the problem.

Samsung player was purchased on 12/21 and the Toshiba in early 2002. Age has not mattered here. Why do SACD's proponents keep downplaying it's serious compatibility problems? (Answer---it doesn't fit their agenda).

 

[Phil A]

Toshibas are notorious for having problems with hybrids. My friend had a problem and tried it on about a dozen other brands and did not have a problem playing hybrids. His Toshiba then would mute out the beginning of each DVD-A track as well. He did not get a response from Toshiba on either issue. SACDs are advertised to play in any CD player, which there are a lot more of than DVD players and when one adds in portables and autos that even makes the difference bigger. It is just a fact that DVD-A is more marketed to the home theater crowd (will play in any DVD player) and SACDs are marketed to more of the music crowd. I have been able to play hybrids Sony, Marantz, Proceed, Panasonic and Pioneer DVD players and have not experienced a problem, including some older models among them.

 

[John Kotches]

Justin,

Thanks -- I did miss this post.

It's DVD players with ROM drives that tend to have the most problems with hybrid SACDs. I have too DVD-ROM drives here, one a drive of unknown origin that will play the CD layer, one Pioneer that won't play the CD layer.

I haven't tested the Meridian unit, since it is based on DVD-ROM, it could well have problems reading hybrid SACDs.

Now, on to why the choice of a dual sided hybrid.

Sony / Philips owns the patent for a hybrid that is dual layered single side. This has an outer layer readable with a 650nm laser for SACD and a 780nm layer for CD. By bonding the CD media on one readable side to a DVD media on the other side, similar to a "flipper" DVD disc format, they have neatly sidestepped the Sony/Philips patent. I'm sure in one of the discussions of the potential for DVD-A hybrids I mentioned this as a potential method for delivery of the CD layer.

In addition, I haven't heard too many complaints about "flipper" DVDs that offer Widescreen versions on one side, and Pan/Scan on the other.

Regards,