Do high end CD players actually make a difference? (1 Viewer)

[RobertR]

I think I'll pass, Lee, but I do appreciate the offer.

 

[Chu Gai]

Will this be selections from Slim Whitman (they say he sold more records than the Beatles), Abba, and Eminem?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Will this be selections from Slim Whitman (they say he sold more records than the Beatles), Abba, and Eminem?

i'm not sure even jitter reduction can save Eminem.
I think the analog tapes are of classical and jazz pieces recorded in purist fashion.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I think I'll pass, Lee, but I do appreciate the offer.

I'm surprised by this. I thought you would want to explore first hand differences jitter can make.

Do you care to explain why you don't want to join in?

 

[BruceD]

Lee,

I can sign-up if my equipment meets your needs (see below).

Thanks for the opportunity.

 

[Yogi]

I think I'll pass, Lee, but I do appreciate the offer.

 

[Manuel Delaflor]

I just posted here info that is relevant to this thread.
Lee, what kind of equipment do you need?

 

[Larry B]

Lee:

Sorry Larry. We would love to have you participate, are you game?

Absolutely! And it's not a problem if I need to kick in a few bucks.

Larry

 

[Chu Gai]

may i make a suggestion Lee for things to include in the test? well since I'm posting I guess I am making it! Consider say 30 seconds each of pink noise and maybe a 2 kHz sine wave...level matched of course!!

 

[RobertR]

Let me think about it some more, Lee. I won't be posting much for the next 12 days, since I'll be traveling.

 

[Michael R Price]

Saurav, can you describe the modifications you did to your CD player? I recall you mentioning you had a Denon. I have a DCD-1520 with PCM-64 DACs and NE5532 opamps. From reading DIYaudio.com I was thinking of first replacing opamps with something like OPA134s, then going for the oscillator and possibly I/V stage upgrades, of which many have been posted by experienced people. From there... well besides power supply and mechanical damping, what else is there? What kind of differences in sound did you get from the upgrades you did? Thanks.

 

[John_KM]

Hmmm, well guys I have to confess to be somewhat lost with the majority of this thread. It started out as a bit of a tit for tat exchange about the merits or otherwise, of purchasing relatively expensive, so called 'high-end' gear, with seemingly small listening/assesment periods between making quick judgements and changing the equipment, if the judgement was deemed unsatisfactory, v's more tried and tested methods of taking time to let equipment settle in, and evaluating it carefully over a somewhat longer period of time.
Then it seemed to become a debate between engineers/pseudo engineers/hifi 'geeks' about the relevence of jitter, DAC design etc. All good stuff, and relevant I guess as to whether one CD player is better than another.
But what happened to the music? I mean, does anyone actually listen/enjoy/become involved in the music anymore on this forum, or does one purchase/evaluate purportedly high quality audio/video equipment like the purchase of, for example, a Microwave?
I care that my Microwave has sensors in it to pick up moisture in cooking food, and measures the weight of dishes etc, as it results in a better/easier result mostly, ie cooking food. Well at least it appeared that way, when I read through the brochures when I purchased it versus the opposition. Um, I didn't take it home to evaluate this in the context of my kitchen, as it just cooks food, and I was satisfied the technology would do a good job, and it was easy to understand (the technology of food/vapour sniffing sensors etc)
Well, my CD player, has a separate sprung sub-chassi, 15 separate regulated power supplies, is top loading, utilizing a small magnetic puck to couple the disk to platter, with minimum transmission of vibration to the disk from the drive motor, etc, etc. I couldn't honestly tell you what it's jitter performance is - actually I don't think the manufacturer even quotes that.
I suppose as I'm very much a musician first, and a music lover to boot, with that then leading into my interest with HiFi, and now Home Theatre, to a slightly lesser degree, I'll never be able to enter/debate on the finer points of circuit design etc. I'd far rather leave that to those much more qualified/knowledgeable than I. But I have to say, that as I respond so intensely to music, on both an intellectual, and emotional level, I'd personally never dream of buying something say via mail order, on the basis of specifications, or price etc. So, whilst I'm aware of some of the more shall we say 'special' design 'feature's of my CD player, how it reproduced MUSIC was the bottom line, pure and simple.
After all, that's the reason why I own it. I don't really care about the 'specs' other than an interest in how results are achieved, so much as the results themselves, in the context of it's musical reproduction. Note, I'm not refering about the sometimes mixing engineer induced artiface, such as pinpoint soundstaging and imaging, (as against the more 'natural' soundstage/imaging such as heard at a live performance) but the sense of musical reproduction per se, again as would be likely to be heard in live performance.
Personally, I think all equipment sounds different, and usually, but not always, better as you advance up the ladder with expenditure. But I'm very much in agreement with some of the earlier posters, re the law of diminishing returns, which applies to almost all manufactured goods IMHO - even microwaves
At the end of the day, all I can suggest/comment upon, is listen to the music. Thats what it's (CD player /hifi generally) for, unlike a microwave, and IMHO should be assesed as one would a musical instrument in many ways.
Anyway, just my 2c worth, don't mean to harp or rant or anything, just that I was getting lost, as I sometimes do with this forum from time to time, with dicussions re where to mail order/buy the cheapest etc, etc, or receiver A has this (spec) and receiver B has this(spec), etc, and what should I buy? type posts - as I was kinda under the impression that it was all about music, and how the equipment may, or may not get us closer to the experience of having the reproduction of high quality music/HT in the home, rather than will my receiver make toast?
Anyway, rant over, um, feel free to flame me if you wish, but I don't really bother to indulge in tit for tat arguments etc, so you won't get any bites. Having said that, I sincerly hope I don't sound arrogant, or pompous, heaven help me, but yeah, like I say, I think it should be about the music. Kind of a soul thing, I guess.
Take Care all, and keep up the interesting posts; great to drop by here on the whole for an interesting, and entertaining read, and mostly civil at that as well, which is rare for internet forums. Great stuff.
Cheers, and peace to all,
John.

 

[Saurav]

Saurav, can you describe the modifications you did to your CD player?

Pretty much what you said. Started out with mechanical damping, then upgrading the opamps followed by the resistors and caps in the signal path after the DAC, then putting in a stabler oscillator circuit. Haven't touched the power supply, I know I should have done that first
Sound changes... I'm pretty sure the opamps made quite a difference (I had OPA2134s on hand so I used those, I think the 134 might be a single opamp, my CD player uses duals). My player is a Denon DCM-270, BTW. The clock upgrade seemed to make a noticable difference too. The rest... harder to say... it sounded better, but subtle enough that I could have been imagining it. So, I can easily recommend the opamps and the clock, the rest may or may not help. I didn't replace the electrolytes in the signal path with polypros (they'd have been too big and/or cost too much), that might have made a difference. I've swapped caps in preamps and phono stages and heard (what I though were) pretty significant differences.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

After all, that's the reason why I own it. I don't really care about the 'specs' other than an interest in how results are achieved, so much as the results themselves, in the context of it's musical reproduction. Note, I'm not refering about the sometimes mixing engineer induced artiface, such as pinpoint soundstaging and imaging, (as against the more 'natural' soundstage/imaging such as heard at a live performance) but the sense of musical reproduction per se, again as would be likely to be heard in live performance.

I think listening beats audio measurements any day of the week. The only thing I question here is the engineer adding pinpoint soundstaging and imaging. You can't add that after the fact based on my recording background. You create that by realistically capturing a live performance (ideally live to 2 track) with minimal mics and a purist recording chain.

 

[Michael R Price]

Thanks Saurav, this will be my next project, at this rate maybe this thread will still be alive when I can post my impressions of it.

Measurements can tell us a lot, especially with the right kind of measurements and the right interpretation. I think I can correlate some aspects of my system's sound with known measurements of its components, such as that my amplifier's power supply voltage drops significantly under load, and that I had been using highly capacitive cables. However, there are some things I hear that I can't explain with anything objective.. such as that my system can make a 'ting' sound really clear and real but the more sustained 'tssh' cymbal sounds are not quite right. Anyway, I'm sure CD players figure into this somehow - we can't just say all the strange little problems with digital sound are because of jitter, but it may help explain some of the differences in CD transports that we're arguing about here.

 

[Chu Gai]

when you did your modifications Saurav, did you simply replace say one resistor with another of equal value? same question regarding the op amps.

 

[Saurav]

same question regarding the op amps

Well.. opamps don't have a "value" per se. They have a fairly standard pinout so any opamp will be a drop-in replacement for any other opamp, the only difference being whether you have single or dual opamps in a chip. The ones I used cost about a dollar or so each (in small quantities, they cost much less in larger numbers) and had better noise and overload specs than the stock ones (which cost a few cents each, I checked the price online). Also, these were opamps I had left over from a subwoofer crossover project, so actually they didn't cost me anything
Anyway... all in all, a satisfying improvement for very little expense. Like I said, I'm pretty sure the opamps helped, not so sure the resistors/caps helped, and kinda sure the clock upgrade helped. That last change involved... say $10 worth of parts or so.

 

[Michael R Price]

Saurav and any others,

Do you know if I could build one of those I/V stage circuits floating around and 'drop it in' to my CD player somehow? I've seen a lot of commercial products that advertise this, such as the "ZAP filter." That way I could get rid of the opamps altogether, right?

Oops, this has turned a bit off course from the original subject. Should I make a new thread or do we not have enough information to discuss? I don't have much of a clue about this stuff, but I'm looking for a few.

 

[Saurav]

Sorry, I can't help you with that as I haven't looked at those circuits in enough detail.

 

[Craig_Kg]

Innumerable posts on this and other forums have argued against the "colored", "distorted" or "highly inaccurate" sound of LP's, but when you are in front of them all those argumentations simply ceases to exist.

!!!??? Manuel, I have read many more posts where vinyl fans deplore the "sterile, lifeless" playback of CD. A lot of is probably from AVS, though. It's like the tube vs SS arguement.