Denon 2900.....I sure love it (2 Viewers)

[TrevorS]

Hi, Joseph

I also noticed that not all Denon reps are aware there was a problem. That's probably because it was corrected almost immediately (only the first production run having it) and Denon has lots of products for them to cover. The first one I spoke to presumed I must be talking about the update to enable DVI on the 5900, though I clearly said 2900.

If you call Denon, be sure to talk to Denon in New Jersey (Customer Service 1-973-396-7499), the numbers on the web site are confused. Ask for Jim. However, if you get him, he will probably refer you to the Marketing Manager, Jeff Talmadge. Make sure you provide your serial number.

Luck -- Trevor

 

[TrevorS]

Bhagi Katbamna -- "Has anyone tried playing DVD+R on it? Sound & Vision, in their review stated it played DVD-R."

Hi, Bhagi

Good quesion, I have a DVD+R/+RW burner as well, but don't have anything appropriate to try. Denon advertises the 2900 supports DVD-R/-RW, but doesn't mention the '+' format. However, I did read comments on the net from several people that tried it and found '+' worked just fine. So, I'm presuming it does, but I can't say from personal experience.

Cheers -- Trevor

 

[JosephLe]

Hi, Trevor
Thank you for your helpful info. I will call Denon again
Joseph

 

[TrevorS]

Hi, everyone

I've decided one of the things I really like about this player is the ability to custom design the gamma curve. I've spent time playing with it and am now getting a picture I like much better than the way it came. In case you are interested, here are my settings -- see what you think. (Configuration "BLACK LEVEL" set to "DARKER".)

There are a total of ten settings that create the curve. Although you can change the first two, doing so messes up the pluge response when performing video calibration, so I recommend against it. Here is a list of both the standard settings and the new ones:

std -> new
----------
24 -> 24
32 -> 32
48 -> 52
64 -> 72
80 -> 92
96 -> 112
128 -> 152
160 -> 192
192 -> 222
224 -> 235
----------

After loading the new gamma curve into an available memory slot (I used M1), you can easily switch between the standard and the new and see what you think. (Calibrate your display settings for brightness and contrast before comparing. I suggest using factory default settings for player brightness and contrast to avoid changing the output dynamic range. The color and hue aren't effected.)

Have fun -- Trevor

 

[JeremySt]

If my RPTV has severe red push, can that be corrected in the gamma curve?

 

[TrevorS]

The gamma curve defines the gray level translation from the source to the display. The color is entirely independent of that. Display color biases are built into the color decoder and typically require a trained video tech (such as ISF) to adjust or defeat (assuming the individual decoder design permits it). If your TV happens to have individual color response controls (most likely in a hidden service menu, if at all) then perhaps the red can be backed off.

Luck -- Trevor

P.S. If it's a serious problem, then perhaps contacting ISF would be helpful. They list locations of ISF trained technicians. Perhaps you can find out if your picture can be helped.

P.P.S. I have a Sony WEGA direct view and just picked up a little LCD portable -- both have decided red push. The only freebee solution I know of is to back off the display color control to reduce the over-saturated red (and allow yellow to be yellow, instead of orange). Setting the hue properly is a problem too, but the end result picture on both is very satisfying.

 

[JeremySt]

Thanks Trevor. Are you using any calibration discs or equipment to adjust your image, or are your results just your subjective prefrence?

I have been able to get into my RPTV's service menu, but the adjustments are displayed in incomprehensible mumbo jumbo. I found this site http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/Ma...sue%205_02.htm that offers some insight, but I cant really make a good adjustment. It did help with setting my default convergence, though. At the moment, I am using a -3db RF attenuator on the red link of my component video cable. It does a really good, job actually. I'm going to try your gamma adjustments and see if what I think.

 

[TrevorS]

I can usually get a workable result subjectively, but I definitely prefer to use a calibration disc. I have a copy of Video Essentials for this kind of stuff.

My problem is TV calibration usually only works for brightness and contrast. The games the manufacturers play in the color decoding typically make it impossible to setup the color properly, so I'm limited to a compromise instead. I usually find my preferred compromise is essentially the same as my subjective result. That is, I usually have to ease back on the color control and adjust the hue control a little further away from green.

Sounds like you already have a good solution for the red push problem. I'll be interested in your feedback on the gamma.

Cheers -- Trevor

 

[JeremySt]

Well, I tried your settings. After I made the adjustments, I popped in Once Upon A Time In The West. The picture was blown out in the very bright spots. At the very beginning of one of the chapters, there is a shot where the camera is inside, looking through some curtains to the outside. With normal settings, the fabric textures of the curtains can be plainly seen, but with the new adjustments, the light shining through the curtains blows out the detail in the fabric completely, and it just looks all white.

 

[TrevorS]

Thanks for the reaction, Jeremy

I haven't watched many films yet. The main difference I get is an expanded sense of 3D and detail throughout everything but the extreme brights, which get compressed some -- but that's the trade-off. The original stops the brights at 224, whereas I'm going to the maximum (235) and then reducing the display contrast to compensate.

Yes, looking at the numbers, I'm allowing about 1/3 the standard dynamic range at the max bright level, essentially the same as standard for the next, and the rest are all 25% larger. I'll have to look for some brighter films to view.

Thanks -- Trevor

 

[TrevorS]

Hi, Jeremy

I've spent more time with it and looked closely at bright scenes (and illuminated areas) in Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, and Video Essentials Montage, and the only way I can duplicate the problem you mentioned is if my contrast is set too high for the gamma curve. The effect is to wash out the detail. My new curve definitely requires a lower contrast (white level) setting than the Standard.

Still, you mentioned a problem, but no benefit, and so it must not have accomplished anything for you anyway. That surprises me since the change has practically transformed the picture on my baby LCD and Sony 36". Last night I spent some time reconfiguring and calibrating my projector for use with the new gamma curve and after I finished, the picture is again transformed. Oh, well, as has been many times said -- YMMV.

Happy Viewing -- Trevor

 

[JeremySt]

My initial impression after the changes were that picture looked "punchier", but I could defenitly tell something wasn't quite right. I just used the particular example from OUATITW to illustrate it. I Think adjusting the gamma curve could potentially imrove the picture, but those numbers did not quite get the job done on on my RPTV. I will try it again, this time, Ill try lowering my tvs contrast. Its already down around 38% of it overall range.

 

[TrevorS]

FWIW -- My goal in changing the gamma curve was to extract the max detail from virtually black, through everything but the upper whites. I decided that for my viewing purposes, high detail (or even standard detail) is marginally useful at approaching peak white. Whereas max detail is highly desirable over the entire rest of the range. I tried experimenting with nonlinear curves, but found the nonlinear gray level translation hindered accurate depth rendering of objects -- the eye-brain knows better.

I tried extending the curve downward, but that wrecked the pluge response and so wasn't practical. My final choice was to stick with the standard pluge levels, maintain max linear detail as far up as possible, and then gradually compress the extreme whites -- where the eye is less discriminating anyway. This requires a lower peak white setting since not only is the total range increased (124->135), but larger portions of the available range are assigned to the lower through mid-high gray levels. This has the effect of increasing the average picture whiteness and so requires reduction of peak white to compensate.

(I tried backing off one notch on the curve, but the visible impact was excessive -- probably a limitation of the 2900 gray level computation from the curve.)

So, I don't know if the curve will be useful to anyone else, but it definitely works for me.

 

[TrevorS]

Hey, Jeremy

Last night I tried "Cliffhanger" with Sylvester Stalone and was able to reproduce the problem you pointed out. Some detail was being lost in the especially bright mountain peaks in a couple scenes. (I guess the earlier scenes I viewed were insufficiently bright.)

I found the only way I could restore that detail, was to hugely increase the dynamic range I was allowing the top two gamma curve segments, especially the uppermost. This required shrinking lower segments and that removed the magic from the rest of the visual range. I also found that any reduction within the linear range below the uppermost two segments (including introducing nonlinearity) had the visual effect of removing the magic. It's as though the values on the lower portions of the curve are critically set -- perhaps something to do with the way the computations work, as well as the eye-brain factor.

My earlier player had a 10bit video DAC and I was always very pleased with its picture detail. This player has a 12bit DAC and definitely beats the image detail of the earlier. With the modified gamma curve, it has made a significant step even further. It makes me wonder what I would be seeing with a 14bit DAC and standard gamma curve. In other words, is it the DAC doing this or is it other improvements in the player video chain (or perhaps both)? It's clearly a video resolution issue, and that implies a DAC factor.

In any case, thanks for pointing out the problem, but no matter how much I try to reduce it, the greater realism of the rest of the response keeps dragging me back. Guess it's just a compromise I'll have to live with.

Thanks -- Trevor

 

[JeremySt]

So you think you corrected the problem? What are your new settings? I'd like to give them a try. Another point of interest, with the setting you gave earlier, if you put on a sharpness pattern, like the THX optimode one, the upper frequencies are completely destroyed! The sharpest lines go from clear and defined to being a blurry mess. Similar to the effect of the tv's sharpness being set far too high.

 

[TrevorS]

Hello, Jeremy

I'm afraid you misread. I said I wasn't able to solve the problem in the extreme whites without damaging the rest of the range. Please take a closer read.

I expect the test you are using is making certain assumptions that my curve is violating, a basic assumption being linear translation of gray levels. If I put on a film that is well mastered, the image I see is highly dimensional and I see no sign of over sharpness (which usually causes a fringing or haloing effect and ruins dimensionality). The only standard test I concerned myself with is the pluge since that is critical in setting black level. I usually leave the sharpness either at the bottom of the range or nearly the bottom.

As I mentioned, this is clearly a compromise situation and one which I will probably revisit regularly (its so easy to switch curves), but my present reaction is the large increase in dimensionality (and reality) of the images totally outweighs the occasional loss of information in the extreme white range.

As always -- YMMV

 

[TrevorS]

Yo, Jeremy

I'm having trouble with older films, so if you feel inclined to try a compromise curve, here you go:

24,32,52,72,92,111,147,179,208,235

Cheers

 

[Cary]

Sorry to break up the happy talk, but I seem to have developed a problem with the 2900. On the new Alien set, the two movies with DTS tracks lock up. Everything's fine on the DD versions. Has anyone else seen this?

Some specific cueing points are-

Alien 1979 C6 - 23:09, C10 - 36:58 & C12 - 45:22
Alien DC C10 - 25:03 (I'm sure there are more.)

Alien 4 DC C0 - 0:03 (doesn't even get thru the Fox logo)
C5 - 10:10

Again, I'm sure it would do it in many more places, but I'd had enough and went over to the DD version. These are repeatable, don't occur on a cheap Sony player, and my machine is well after the firmware upgrade date. I'd love any ideas, suggestions, and particularly confirmation or denial of this from another player. Thanks all.

 

[JeremySt]

those problems have been discussed in other threads quite a bit. It seems to a problem with the Discs, not your player. Other players are having troubles as well.

 

[Lewis Besze]

those problems have been discussed in other threads quite a bit. It seems to a problem with the Discs, not your player. Other players are having troubles as well.

So far I only seen one complaint from a different brand,several from 2900 owners including me.Unfortunatelly I'm not as convinced as you,that this is a disc problem. We'll see i guess,as I alerted Denon Jeff about this.