defeat macrovision... (1 Viewer)

[John Morris]

Jeff: Everything you said is essentially correct. However, since I joined this forum back in Jan 1999, many forum rules, and the extent to which they are enforced, have changed in both form and function as changes in the industry have evolved. Today, it makes no sense to ignore the problems that anti-piracy methods have made for us good law abiding HT owners. Just take a look at the mess that the new DVD anti-piracy encoding has caused with some receivers and preamp/processors. How could I currently recommend an Onkyo receiver without discussing this problem? As CD watermarking becomes the norm, more and more hardware incompatibilities will appear. Do we just pretend that they do not exist? For HT newbies looking to buy a DVD player, how could a discussion on this not involve how to hook up this new DVD player to their coax connector only TV(already hooked up to their VCR) without talking about Macrovision problems and how to correct for them. Finally, as copyprotection schemes increase in both compexity and breadth, it will be imperative for each of us to consider the impact that they will have on the upgradability of our current and future purchases.

If the studios have their way, ALL content will eventually be pay for view. Only through the voice of the people(US), as heard on these forums, can we let the studios and manufacturers know that we will not stand still for the increased infringement on what we do in the privacy of our own homes with the software and hardware that we own after we PAY for it with our own hard earned money.

I can understand the concern that Packy and Ron may feel with regard to their personal exposure to lawsuit, however, the rules of the forum also state the following disclaimer.

8. The opinions and comments made in the posts written by our members are the rights to and the responsiblity of the individual member. The Home Theater Forum assumes no responsibility of the content expressed or implied by its membership.

Doesn't this absolve them of any responsibility?

 

[Bergan Peters]

This is an issue of control, not about liability. No one could be prosecuted for ANYTHING that appears on this web site. There is a little thing called the first amendment, it protects all from what we say. There are recipes for bombs, recipes for ectasy, recipes for making your own silencers for your guns, ALL over the internet. These sites are completely legal thanks to the FANTASTIC country that we live in, the odds of this thread being closed are HIGHLY probable.

 

[Ken Seeber]

This is an issue of control, not about liability. No one could be prosecuted for ANYTHING that appears on this web site.

This isn't an issue of prosecution, which is a criminal issue. It's a matter of civil liability.

Anyone can file a law suit. A studio could file suit against the owners of this former without caring about actually winning. The expense of defending themselves against the suit would be enough to put this site out of business.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Gentlemen,

My attention was called to this thread

and I am not exactly sure how to handle

things here as I am uncertain as to what

the laws are regarding defeating macrovision

or anything related to defeating region coding.

Yes, I have discussed publicly that I

have a modified DVD player.

What I have not discussed is how I had it

modified or how to go about having it modified.

In retrospect, perhaps it was a bad idea as

co-owner of this forum to even make mention

of it. It's not a very responsible thing for

me to do.

Honestly, my disgust for the way better DVD

product is being made available only overseas

prompted me to open my big mouth.

So where does this forum go from here on the

subject of discussing region-free and macro-free

products?

Let's just say that for now as long as such

players are still legally sold here, I don't

care if you discuss where they can be bought or

how well they perform.

As far as giving instructions on how to manually

defeat a player's intended coding yourself? I

think that sort of discussion should cease here.

Please realize that we don't want to be held

responsible for the exchange of information that

can ultimately get us into a lawsuit with a studio

or manufacturer.

Thanks for understanding.

 

[Nick_Gray]

In response to a much earlier (rhetoric?) question:

Where does it say that I can't disable macrovision in the comfort of my own home for non-commercial means ... ?

The "Digital Millenium Copyright Act" (DMCA) basically makes it illegal to circumvent, attempt to circumvent, or assist another in doing so, any electronic copyright protection scheme, irrespective of why you wish to do so ("Fair use" is extremely limited in scope; I have not read the "Home Recording Act", but I believe that the DMCA supercedes it, anyway).

If a player does not implement Macrovision, there is no protection to circumvent; though I am still not sure how it may be legally sold in the states.

 

[Eric Kahn]

The "Digital Millenium Copyright Act" (DMCA) basically makes it illegal to circumvent, attempt to circumvent, or assist another in doing so, any electronic copyright protection scheme, irrespective of why you wish to do so ("Fair use" is extremely limited in scope; I have not read the "Home Recording Act", but I believe that the DMCA supercedes it, anyway).

If a player does not implement Macrovision, there is no protection to circumvent; though I am still not sure how it may be legally sold in the states.

to take this one step further

this is a united states law, so it only applies in the US, which is why every machine I have seen for sale that has non-working macrovision is for sale in another country, I.e. canada where there is no such law which is how they get away with selling the machines because it is not the manufacturer that is defeating the macrovision, it is the seller and that lets the Manufacturer off the hook on the contract and licensing issues

If you live in the US and defeat the macrovision yourself, it is illegal, if you buy it from someone else and that feature does not work, they can not come after you, just the guy who did it and if that person is in another country, our laws and courts do not apply

to get any deeper, consult your local lawyer, which I am not

 

[Glenn Overholt]

Eric, that was interesting, to say the least. To re-word what you stated, all DVD players from any manufacturer come with macrovision protection already in place and activated, but when the Canadian DVD retailer gets them in stock, they remove the macrovision and then sell it, right?

To further that, if I drove to Canada and brought one of their DVD players, US customs would shake their heads at me at our border and say, "No, you can't bring that in!"

Glenn

 

[John Morris]

Eric and Nick: Thanks for the info on the DMCA. Which asshole congressmen let the studios push that through? Things like this make me wonder why anyone would invest thousands into a home theater when if the studios have their ways, eventually we will pay as much, or more, to watch their movies as we do at the movie theater. Hmmm, maybe that is the intention of the law?

I realize that you guys are not lawyers, but based on the apparent legality of owning and using a DVD player which bypasses macrovision, is it also then legal to merely use legally sold components, none of which are designed to overcome macrovision, but which also happen to bypass macrovision by their use?

 

[Eric Kahn]

Glenn, I was going to mail order mine online so I would not have to do that, I want to be able to watch other region stuff, the macrovision free is a bonus, I don't think I have even tried to copy a video tape in the last 8 years or so, not worth it when you can get them for less than 20 bucks

John, if the equipment being used was not designed to defeat any copy protection and you are using it as designed, they could not touch you

 

[NickSP]

In no way am I supporting macrovision or anything illegal. But, just the way I can make a backup of my software, I should be able to make at least a VHS copy of my DVD should the DVD ever get lost or scratched or anything of that nature.

So if anyone is interested, try and get your hands on an older DVD player and an older Hi-Fi VCR and that's it. I have the Panny A110U and a very old Magnavox Hi-Fi VCR and it makes excellent copies no matter what DVD you throw at it. The old stuff does not recognize Macrovision unlike my new Onkyo DVM-301 and theMitsu HSU-795 which will not make any copies whatsoever.

 

[Bergan Peters]

I'd like to see the DMCA in writing. It would be nearly impossible for the government to tell you that you can't do WHATEVER you want with a DVD once you get it in your house, in fact, I'll stake my house on it. I believe that the sale of a macrovision free DVD player in America could be illegal, but once in your home, free use would DEFINITELY come into play here. The problem here is that we are treating the DVD like it is some kind of magic. Change DVD to book. You think the government could prosecute you for oh saying, photocopying your book to read? No. Burning a book? No, first amendment. It's the same thing. Just think of DVDs as books, because they are just digital information.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Ron,

I hope your not peeved at me for bringing up the other thread

where you were discussing the lack of Macrovision on a

certain player.

I was just curious what the Administrators/Owners stance

was on the issue.

Thanks for talking with us on this issue and this only goes

to show why this is a great forum.

 

[John Morris]

John, if the equipment being used was not designed to defeat any copy protection and you are using it as designed, they could not touch you

Eric: Well, I have been using a Sima Pro Color Corrector for years to help achieve true whites in my video images and apparently, a by-product of this unit is that, like an old vcr, it somehow does not activate macrovision. I find it interesting that the manufacturer's web site says nothing about defeating macrovision as a feature, yet does include a disclaimer which reads:

NOTICE

Use of this product for unauthorized duplication of copyrighted material from DVD, VHS or other media is prohibited under federal copyright laws unless the copy qualifies as a fair use under the Copyright Laws.

Does making personal use, videotape copies of DVDs, you bought with your hard earned money, qualify under Fair Use?

 

[NickSP]

Why is it that a site/forum as popular and powerful as this one is shying away from this hotly debated topic? Why not use this as one powerful voice and lobby against the studios?

I do understand Ron's position as an owner against any illegal activity here. But for crying out loud, we are not talking about making copies from DVDs and distributing them. We would and should be able to make copies for our own home if we want to.

 

[Brett DiMichele]

Unfortunatly Corporations and Organizations will always run

this country as much as we don't like it, sometimes it seems

like a loosing battle.

Take Microsoft for example (ohh yeah WAY off topic now)...

Computer Resellers can not sell used PC's with any MS OS's

installed any more.. Even if they bought it with that OS and

all the bookwork and serial numbers they still HAVE to ERASE

the OS.. Now I ask you is that fair?

Or how about this.. I buy my PC and I pay 3K for it and then

I build another PC and I take my fully licensed copy of my

OS and install it onto the other PC... Guess what.. That is

NOT LEGAL.. Does that seem fair either?

Does it seem fair that Bose could SUE Consumer Reports because

they said that the Bose product was unsatisfactory? (Granted

Bose lost the case...) But still, Does that seem fair????

Those with the money will always make the laws and control

them..

If OJ Simpson would have been a p0 middle class chum like me

he'd be in prison....

I fully support the Owner/Administrators position on this

Macrovision deal. I just wanted to hear "exactly" what thier

position was. I would hate to see them come under fire from

some multi billion dollar industry who could easily bankrupt

them. And for what reason other than just to be a bully?

 

[Nathan Hamstra]

hello

 

[Norm Strong]

For those who wish to discuss this matter, my e-mail address is below:

 

[Nick_Gray]

Looking through the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, which is basically what establishes what has come to be (inappropriately, imho) known as "fair use" (literally defined by the Copyright Act of 1976, and extremely limited in scope), I came across this:

Contracting Parties shall provide adequate legal protection and effective legal remedies against the circumvention of effective technological measures that are used by authors in connection with the exercise of their rights under this Treaty or the Berne Convention and that restrict acts, in respect of their works, which are not authorized by the authors concerned or permitted by law.

Please note that it uses the term "technological measures" instead of "digital" or anything else more specific.

Now, supposedly the DMCA provides terminology for protection of "fair use", but I have not yet come across it. Also, it is important to note that the RIAA basically drafted the document on behalf of Congress (real nice of them) - I would not be at all surprised to find enough clauses to effectively (if not legally) restrict or eliminate "fair use". Also, after seeing the way the DMCA has been used in court, the senator who backed it (don't remember his name, but I think he was from NJ) is now a staunch adversary.

If I come across anything else interesting that applies here, I'll post it.

 

[Nick_Scott]

Wow- A mixture of techno-babble, and legal-babble. Now I am totally confused!!

On a slightly less confusing area, my old RCA DVD player actually came with an laserdisc-style RF-out. Why? Have no idea since the RF-adapter that you need to use it costs more then the player. Made me curious about the Macrovision thing because I was thinking of given this player to my mother, but havnt figuired out how to hook it up to her coax-only TV.

 

[Charles J P]

Damn, I go out of town on business, and this thread blows wide open. By the way, the Sima Pro Color Corrector and its "side effect" are exactly what I was alluding to. It costs about $100 though.