componant synergy (1 Viewer)

[Red Spencer]

I did post this elsewhere, but if you have some wisdom...
What part does synergy play in the whole, when it comes to componants,cables, and speakers. I went to a really classy hi-fi retailer (the kind that don't try and sell you anything) and their perception was synergy plays a signifigant role in your total sound. And if this be true, then how do you know which manufactures synergize best with each other.
If you know any proven combinations that synergize well, please list them

 

[Matt Jesty]

Synergy ,imo, begins with matched speakers and then goes to finding a rcvr/amp(then pre-amp) that sounds good with them...that is as far as most people take it, but then you can demo differant source components with this set-up to find which are complimentary....then cables and interconnects......etc ad nauseum

 

[Tim Hoover]

Red, component synergy is simply balancing out the sonic attributes of all your audio gear. For instance, you wouldn't necessarily want to run a bright CD player into a bright receiver that goes into bright speakers. The result would probably be too screechy for most of us. But, like all things audio (and video), synergy is a highly personal and subjective thing. Someone with extreme tinnitus might find the above example to sound great!

As a personal example: I love the clarity and detail of my Norh 4.0 speakers, yet I find them a bit on the harsh and sterile side. My purchase of a Harmon/Kardon preamp, known for its warm presentation, softened the speakers up just to my liking - making the sonic presentation very smooth and liquid without sacrificing too much detail.

 

[Red Spencer]

Thanks guys...thought nobody wanted to respond:frowning:

 

[Chu Gai]

would someone explain to me just what attributes of a decent middle of the road cd player or solid state amp make it bright or warm or tepid? just how would the signal be affected in order to achieve this?
with respect to your question though Red, I would say its largely based on the individual coming to an understanding of what makes it for them insofar as speakers go and then expending the necessary effort to get them to behave in the room they're placed in. after that its simply choosing components with the appropriate features and capabilities to work with those speakers.

 

[Tim Hoover]

Well Chu, your question is a bit more complicated. The main thing is the design of the component. All those little caps, resistors, and inductors work together - not just providing voltage and current sources for the next device, but boosting some frequencies and attenuating others. A certain circuit may be primarily designed to output a specific voltage or current to the next stage, but also may form a filter that affects the frequencies of the transmission. Many circuits are also designed for the express purpose of audibly altering the signal (again as in filters) to the designer's idea of what the component should sound like. I hope this helps, as it's a bit difficult to explain in Plain English!

The materials that the devices are made of can also affect the sound. For instance, silver wire has a brighter tone than copper. If the component is point-to-point wired this example can come into play.

 

[Chu Gai]

well sure, if the amp or pre has been designed to alter the frequency response, but really, is that the mark of a well designed component or one that's been intentionally colored? regardless of how one achieves the signal that's output, a flat frequency response with inaudible distortion is simply that. the only thing silver has going for it is about 6% less resistivity which in and of itself doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

[Tim Hoover]

well sure, if the amp or pre has been designed to alter the frequency response, but really, is that the mark of a well designed component or one that's been intentionally colored?

Many intentional colorations are introduced to correct unintentional colorations due to the design and construction of the surface-mount devices. For instance, my background is cell phones, and the N701 lower-band mixer on the Nokia 6100 series outputs a wicked 19.47 kHz harmonic that must be corrected at a later stage. The harmonic is useful for tracking signal flow through the circuit, but needs to be eliminated before output into the audio band. The N721 upper-band mixer also outputs a similar harmonic, but it is out of the audio range, and thus uncorrected. Many useful circuits don't have flat responses, and these must be corrected.

As far as the argument concerning whether or not a component with intentional colorations is good, I would generally say yes. I back this up with an experience in the recording studio with some funky mic from the 70's. The engineer still had the data sheet boasting a tremendously ruler-flat response. Unfortunately, the mic sounded like crap - totally dull and lifeless. We all preferred the Audio Technica 4050, which has a prominent midrange peak and a shallower but still large bass dip. It gave the sound that our human ears found pleasing. Although it did not have a flat frequency response, it did a much better job of conveying the character and quality of a human voice much better than the dry, sterile, ruler-flat mic.

As far as silver having a lower impedance, that's what gives it a brighter tone than copper - a higher impedance attenuates treble frequencies more.

 

[Saurav]

just how would the signal be affected in order to achieve this?

Moving on to system synergy: with source and amplification components, IMO the most important thing for component matching is impedance. This includes output impedance of the source device, input impedance of the amplifier device, and cable capacitance.
Solid state amps usually have lower input impedances than tube amps. My NAD integrated amp had a 20Kohm input impedance, some can go down to the range of 10Kohms. In comparision, tube amps are usually in the 100Kohms range or higher. This lower impedance means that more current is drawn from the source device. Depending on several factors of the source device (quality of the output transistors, how those transistors are biased, how much current the power supply can handle, what feedback mechanism has been used, and so on), the bias point of the output transistors changes slightly. This changes the harmonic distortion spectrum of the sound, which may or may not be audible, again depending on various factors. Loosely speaking, driving a transistor harder (by sending more current through it) usually results in the sound becoming harsher or edgier after a point. Very loosely speaking, of course.
Other than that, I agree with what Hoover says. I have changed capacitors inside preamps and heard the sound change. It's a little hard to do a DBT when the change involves soldering in new components, so I haven't verified the differences I heard in a blind test.

 

[Chu Gai]

I respect your experiences, but what does any of that have to do with your typical modern solid state amp/receiver? virtually all of them have flat requency responses and inaudible distortion levels. all i can say is that based on various level matched tests i've done over the years, i can't ascribe such characteristics. to me, people who've bought certain speakers and then look to 'correct' their sound have either bought the wrong speakers or haven't addressed room issues.
I quite understand how some might intenionally seek out a coloration as a matter of preference however i've not seen it in onkyos, marantz, sony, bryston, yamahas and i'd imagine a host of other too such as odysseys, levinsons, etc.

 

[Chu Gai]

well saurav, are you talking solid state and if so then did you reconfirm the linearity? if not, who really knows what you did, yes?

 

[Saurav]

I quite understand how some might intenionally seek out a coloration as a matter of preference however i've not seen it in onkyos, marantz, sony, bryston, yamahas and i'd imagine a host of other too such as odysseys, levinsons, etc.

Sure, I don't dispute that.

 

[Saurav]

well saurav, are you talking solid state and if so then did you reconfirm the linearity? if not, who really knows what you did, yes?

No, I'm not talking solid state and no, I did not re-confirm anything. Who knows what I did, indeed I ended up with a better sounding preamp, that's all I know But you're right, I do not have the tools to measure my equipment's FR, and I didn't try. I would definitely have checked it if I had the tools. The point of that anecdote was that changing a capacitor can affect the sound, even though the capacitance value is the same or close enough that you wouldn't expect it to. Or, you increase the capacitance expecting more bass, but the treble changes too, or something like that.
And I'm sorry, I thought your previous post was directed at me.

 

[Chu Gai]

well that's cool! nahhhhhh...not directed towards you.
i'll read the link Luis..thanks...btw, how do those tube hold up on nyc streets?

 

[Tim Hoover]

I quite understand how some might intenionally seek out a coloration as a matter of preference however i've not seen it in onkyos, marantz, sony, bryston, yamahas and i'd imagine a host of other too such as odysseys, levinsons, etc.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you here. Many HTFers have spoken, for example, about the brightness of Yamaha receivers. Many have purchased Yamaha receivers because they like that bright tone. I'd also go a little further than Saurav and say that the human ear can detect tonal changes in a fraction of a decibel. This might explain why most receivers, with measured flat responses, all sound different.
BTW Saurav, how did you know that all my acquaintances refer to me by last name only? It's a little spooky

 

[Chu Gai]

Well Tim, one day when you've got nothing else to do take the Yamaha and say a Marantz, level match them at the speaker terminals, and with someone else doing the switching and you not knowing which is being played, try and figure it out. What people perceive as differences suddenly become not so different when that's done. If anything, it's my opinion, that it be done once in a person's life as the lessons gleaned tend to give a refreshingly new perspective on components.
I'm well aware that many people are of the opinion that mainstream, and even not so mainstream amps and receivers, speaking solid state, have a warmth to them. However this opinion has not been able to be verified under controlled testing conditions suggesting the perceived differences are based upon something other than sound. As far as the ear being able to detect differences, I'm a little unclear as to what you mean. The ear is decidedly non-linear with its ablility to discriminate between differences in levels. For example, in the range of say 1-4(5) kHz, the ability to detect a difference is about 1/4 of a dB. In the upper frequency ranges, a few dB are required. Keep in mind this is determined using test tones and headphones. The discriminatory differences need to be larger once we're dealing with music and are of course a function of the ambient noise in our homes. There are companies that will take a non-standard implementation of things and perhaps roll off a bit of the top end with perhaps a modest boost in the middle and yes in the areas of say CD players there is a difference. Everyone will interpret that difference in their own way...warm, engaging, call it what you will. Myself, I object on principal to someone f*cking with the frequency response curves and then charging me a premium for that. We've got equalizers and tone controls if we wish to contour the music to our tastes. That and effort, if one wishes to expend it, on our rooms and speaker positioning.

 

[Tim Hoover]

Myself, I object on principal to someone f*cking with the frequency response curves and then charging me a premium for that.

That shouldn't be a problem, as most of the preamps and power amps with the flattest responses are usually much more expensive than their (slightly) less accurate brethren! We should simply agree to disagree on accuracy preferences. There are some who seek the most accurate reproduction of sound as far as measured frequency response, and those who are not as concerned with frequency response and judge an audio component by how musically involving it is. I think we fall on opposite ends of that spectrum
I was thinking about this last night, and though I've been working under the assumption that most receivers are relatively flat, I'm not entirely sure of that. I tried a comparison a year ago when I purchased a Kenwood VR-407 for a 2nd system. I also had an older Kenwood KR-V990D laying around that I compared to the 407. These were both run through a set of Alesis Monitor Ones. I found the 407 to be slightly brighter than the 990. Does anyone have some response curves for some of the popular receivers? I don't think they're quite as flat as we assume..

 

[Saurav]

Myself, I object on principal to someone f*cking with the frequency response curves and then charging me a premium for that.

That's a good point, but there's another way of looking at it. Like you said, our hearing is very non-linear. Since we're buying gear to please our ears and not to please measuring instruments, I think that affects the accuracy requirements from our equipment. For instance, you said that we're much more sensitive to frequency response anomalies in the 1-5KHz range. Since we know that, shouldn't that be a factor in choosing gear? For instance, let's say you had two speakers - one was +/-1dB from 20 to 20K and pretty much varied evenly throughout, while another was +/-1dB 20 to 20K but +/-0.5dB in the midrange. If you look at it from an overall measurement point of view, the first speaker is more accurate. However, if you factor in our non-linear sensitivity, it's the second speaker that will sound more accurate to us.
The same argument exists for THD - tests have shown that we find odd order harmonic distortion much more annoying than even order, by several orders of magnitude. Keeping that in mind, I would rather own gear that allowed some even order distortion but kept odd order to a minimum, instead of gear that had a nice THD figure on paper, but that THD consisted mostly of high odd order components.
So... IMO, eventually measurements can be used to somewhat correlate with what we hear. I don't believe there's any magic at work here I do believe, however, that the measurements that are available and published today don't tell you much about how you will respond to something, and we definitely know enough today to be able to publish more meaningful measurements and specs.
Of course, there are many reasons for manufacturers not providing the consumers with this data.

 

[Chu Gai]

i can see or is it hear your point Saurav of course even with odd order harmonics, there's a point, even if they were dominant, where they're inaudible. regarding speakers trained listeners have been used in work done in Canada where their comments regarding a speaker's performance have been found to correlate with measured frequency response curves. i posted the link once some time back. if interested i'll dig it up and repost it if anyone's interested.