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Check out this PCM vs. DSD wave comparison (1 Viewer)

KeithH

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Very interesting! Lee? John? Comments? :)
From the link:
However, since the Philips literature had specifically referenced DVD-Audio in its comparison, Anderson next examined the PCM output at DVD-Audio’s higher resolution sample rates. Here, the graphs told a very different story. The 96kHz trace (shown in Figure 3, right) improved in rise time, resulting in a sustained peak duration much closer in appearance to a square wave.
Anderson explained that the bump at the peak’s extremities is the signal’s first harmonic, now identifiable thanks to the increased sampling precision. At 192kHz (Figure 4, right), Anderson reports, the trace improves even more, cutting the rise time in half and revealing the square wave’s third harmonic.
Turning to the DSD trace (Figure 5, right), Anderson found that “The DSD trace does look very similar to the picture in the Phillips brochure, and represents the square wave better than the first two PCM traces [at 44.1 and 96 kHz].” But when compared with 192kHz PCM, DSD performance proved very similar.
Overlaying the DSD and 192 kHz traces (Figure 6, right), Anderson pointed out that the difference in rise time between DSD and 192 kHz are “statistically (and perhaps audibly) insignificant.” Also, both accurately extract the first and third harmonics from the square wave. However, Anderson noted one readily apparent difference between DSD and the highest resolution PCM – the DSD trace is blurry.
The DSD trace, Anderson points out, is tainted by DSD’s dirty little secret: the excessive amount of noise created by one-bit sampling. To disguise it, Sony and Philips implemented a noise-shaping system that shifts noise from the lower frequencies into the ultrasonic range, where it is presumably inaudible (a debatable point in itself, Anderson maintains).
However, Anderson attributes the primary cause of the DSD “blurring” shown in Figures 5 and 6 to imprecise traces along the vertical and horizontal axes, which are much more significant than any noise superimposed on the traces themselves. He suggests these imperfections in the DSD signal are evidence of imperfections in amplitude and time domain, respectively. “Were one to zoom in on the DSD signal,” he said, “one would actually see amplitude fluctuations of 50% peak amplitude, and time domain errors similar to the 96kHz rise time deviation. The defect, when compared with the PCM photos, illustrates perfectly the reason that DSD is incapable of reproducing the same transient twice.”
What can we draw from these findings? Anderson was quick to point out that a square wave is not the most pleasurable or representative musical experience (as anyone who’s ever heard one can readily attest). However, it does provide a “torture test” yardstick. In testing one of the DSD proponents’ key marketing claims, Anderson concluded, “We can clearly see that with this particular waveform, PCM produces a much more faithful copy of the original with both accuracy and precision. It does help dispel the myth that DSD’s one-bit sampling is the panacea to the world of digital audio.”
Geez, I wish there were more 192-kHz DVD-Audio discs available. :frowning:
So, what would 384 kHz PCM look like? :)
 

Lee Scoggins

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This is what one would expect from Craigman Digital, a consultant to Warner and the DVDA working group.
As far as noise in the ultrasonic band goes, even Vanderkooy acknowledges both noise issues in DVD Audio and DSD. He further has agreed at AES conferences that DSD noise can almost be completely eliminated with dithering techniques to a vanishingly low -160 to -180 db floor, as Dirk Reefman of Philips has shown.
This is more about marketing than science. :)
A better test is one actual music, particularly female voice and high frequencies and acoustic musical instruments. There one can understand the advantages of Super Audio's higher sampling rate.
:)
 

Dan Joy

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OH boy, here wo go again:eek:
in my best parent voice: Children, if I hear anymore fighting, I will have to separate you into two separate rooms, just like the kids in Audio Asylum!
:D
 

Philip Hamm

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I wonder if vinyl and certain tube amps have similar oscilloscope traces?
I want to see the oscilloscope trace of the original square wave compared to that recorded on 2" tape on a Studer 32 track.

Tests like this don't matter to the SACD proponents. To them it's all "how it sounds", accuracy and science is secondary if it "sounds good".

It looks to me that from this test, DVD-A at 192Khz may have the accuracy advantage, but that in a multichannel configuration, 6 DSD tracks would be preferable to 6 48/24 or maybe even 6 96/24 tracks.
 

Justin Lane

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This is what one would expect from Craigman Digital,
a consultant to Warner and the DVDA working group.
Bias aside, if these waveforms are indeed accurate, it shows to me that DSD is doing a better job then 96kHz DVD-A while 192kHz DVD-A out does the DSD. There is definite noise in the DSD signal, whether it is audible or not is a debate we will never answer.

I think most can agree that what these wave forms do indeed show is that both DVD-A and SACD provide improvements over redbook CD. These graphs show me that the strictly pro-SACD crowd does not know what it is missing by simply blowing off DVD-A. Their loss.

J
 

Lee Scoggins

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I want to see the oscilloscope trace of the original square wave compared to that recorded on 2" tape on a Studer 32 track.
This raises an interesting point. It is still hard to beat analog tape.

From a scientific standpoint, it may be more interesting to compare an analog music signal after ADC-DAC conversion.
 

Justin Lane

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I even record in hi-rez PCM at 88.2khz. It sounds great on classical work, but not as good as DSD does.
Lee,

Have you gotten a chance to record in 192 kHz PCM. This is where the graphs referenced in this thread show PCM really shines. From the graphs I will agree that DSD does appear to do a better job then 96 kHz PCM of reproducing a square wave albeit with a bit more noise. 192 kHz PCM appears to do the job just as well as DSD without the same amount of distortion.

I really would like to see a comparison of DSD vs. 192 kHz PCM vs. Original Analog
 

Philip Hamm

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Lee did you read your post? You started by disagreeing with my statement
I think the best one can do, and I say this with a diplomatic perspective, is listen to each format for oneself and decide what you like.
Which agrees COMPLETELY with what I wrote. Thanks for backing up my statement. :):D:p)
Anyway, it's funny to disregard measurements and go with what "sounds good". I'll bet you that the engineering teams behind DSD and hi-rez PCM both payed CLOSE attention to the measurements. But once it's ouside of the lab the measurements are less important I guess. :)
 

Michael St. Clair

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Tests like this don't matter to the SACD proponents. To them it's all "how it sounds", accuracy and science is secondary if it "sounds good".
Sounds a lot like like the age-old Tube versus SS argument.
But try getting any Tube or DSD proponent to admit that the sound that they find 'more musical' just might be less accurate. ;)
 

Jagan Seshadri

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Great to see these graphs instead of the Sony/Philips DSD vs 44.1/16 comparison. Also, great to see that an analog oscilloscope was used here.:emoji_thumbsup: Still, it would be nice to know what model of 'scope was used for the tests.
As expected, the DSD signal is blurred with noise-shaping dither, which is fine, since this ultrasonic noise gets filtered off anyway. A "dirty little secret"? Hell, Sony Bit-Mapping (SBM) uses dithering (which causes this blur) and 1-bit converters A/D with noise shaping also do this. It's not dirty - dithering is a psychoacoustic necessity for getting 1-bit systems to sound good.
The 192kHz trace is great. I was surprised that the 96kHz trace was not as accurate as I had imagined. Now I know.
It is interesting to see that the same overshoot/undershoot (Gibbs' phenomemon) happens with both PCM and DSD.
I dont follow this last comment though:
DSD is incapable of reproducing the same transient twice.
Anyone? That last statement seemed to come out of thin air and had no graphs to back it up!
-JNS
 

Lee Scoggins

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Which agrees COMPLETELY with what I wrote.
A bit sensitive are we? I did agree that measurements don't capture everything as any good engineer will agree, but where we differ is the implication that every SACD proponent is not basing an argument on technical grounds. Jim Angus, Derk Reefman, David Kawakami all believe it sounds better due to the faster sampling and fewer circuits. Go to www.aes.org for more technical details.
Nobody has yet proven that the ultrasonic noise is audible and many like Stereophile editor and recording engineer John Atkinson can not hear it.
I think this is very much a tempest in a teapot.
It is also dangerous, if not completely wrong, to extrapolate that DSD or 192 is more or less accurate than another based on square wave graphs.
 

Jagan Seshadri

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It is also dangerous, if not completely wrong, to extrapolate that DSD or 192 is more or less accurate than another based on square wave graphs.
10 kHz square waves provide good test coverage. True, these particular tests don't test dynamic range or sensitivity, but they sure tell a lot about frequency performance and transient response of both systems.

-JNS
 

Justin Lane

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It is also dangerous, if not completely wrong, to extrapolate that DSD or 192 is more or less accurate than another based on square wave graphs.
I agree with this statement, but haven't you yourself trumpeted DSD's ability to accurately reproduce a squarewave (i.e natural decay of a cymbal) as a selling point over PCM. From these graphs it appears 192 kHz PCM does the job better.

Regardless of of the sampling method, we should strive for reproduction of source that most closely approximates the input signal. Signal In= Signal Out. In the case of a squarewave, PCM obviously does this better at 192 kHz when compared to DSD. When compared to 96 kHz PCM, DSD appears to do a better job. Of course what constitutes good sound is totally subjective, but I, at least personally, like to have a little bit of scientific footing/knowledge behind what I listen. Just because something sounds better to me, does not necessarily mean it is faithful to the original source.

J
 

Lee Scoggins

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PCM obviously does this better at 192 kHz when compared to DSD
This may prove to be true or not. I think we need to be a bit more cautious about this discussion the article was written on since it was conducted by a consultant to Warner Music. We may yet see a Sony response to this particular test, and it could be possible that conditions biased the result one way or another.
 

Justin Lane

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We may yet see a Sony response to this particular test, and it could be possible that conditions biased the result one way or another.
The same could be said of any test conducted by Sony. What we need then is an inpartial publication or website to provide tests of their own. I am sure both Warner and Sony would be glad to provide the necessary equipment because they have confidence in the performance of Hi-res PCM and DSD respectively.

J
 

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