Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022) (1 Viewer)

[Joe Wong]

I finally watched this yesterday on D+ and agree with some here that the character elements worked best, and the tributes to Chadwick Boseman were very nicely done. The whole Wakandan cast was great. I also agree that they tried to cram too much into one film. Finally, the whole Namor/Talokan thing didn't really work for me at all. Yes, I know the character has a long history in the comics, but I'm sorry, the ankle wings were almost laughable, and as far as undersea civilizations go, I think DC did it better with Aquaman.

To be fair, Aquaman's world is focused on being in the ocean, so they had the opportunity to explore more of his civilisation for that film. Whereas Talokan has to share the film with Wakanda in Wakanda Forever. I'm sure if there are further films set in Talokan, more will be revealed.

As for the ankle wings, it may sound a little out there (in isolation), but this is within a universe that contains talking raccoons and flerkens, and where time travel and multiverses are possible, amongst all kinds of wild and wonderful.

I mean, Aquaman's undersea world had some wild stuff as well!

 

[dpippel]

To be fair, Aquaman's world is focused on being in the ocean, so they had the opportunity to explore more of his civilisation for that film. Whereas Talokan has to share the film with Wakanda in Wakanda Forever. I'm sure if there are further films set in Talokan, more will be revealed.

As for the ankle wings, it may sound a little out there (in isolation), but this is within a universe that contains talking raccoons and flerkens, and where time travel and multiverses are possible, amongst all kinds of wild and wonderful.

I mean, Aquaman's undersea world had some wild stuff as well!

View attachment 175012

Joe, good points, but IMO at least Rocket and most of the Aquaman stuff seem somewhat plausible. Little ankle wings allowing for jet-fighter-level flight? Well... sorry, but nah.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Wakanda Forever is now playing in theaters in China. It becomes the first Marvel film allowed into that country since Spider-Man: Far From Home in 2019.

‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Makes Third Place Start in China Cinemas

“Black Panther: Wakanda Forever,” the first Marvel franchise movie to be released in mainland China for three years, made a quiet start in Chinese cinemas. The film debuted Tuesday and grossed $3.4…

variety.com

 

[jayembee]

She certainly works better than America did because Riri is positioned as a reflection of Shuri. Therefore, she seems more significant to this story, especially with Shuri as the new protagonist. They are both young prodigies who have similar interests and abilities but who come from very different backgrounds and have different perspectives. I found it interesting to watch the two of them together. Doctor Strange does not have that kind of equivalency with America.

In the comics, Shuri and Riri have worked together, even though Wakanda wasn't involved in Riri's "origin". So here, they are short-cutting the Shuri/Riri bond. I've no idea if Strange and America have had any interaction in the comics.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I've no idea if Strange and America have had any interaction in the comics.

I don't know the comics either. Looking after America Chavez in the movie was just something that Doctor Strange had to do. Shuri and Riri are peers in terms of their ages and intellectual capacities, which made them interesting to bounce off each other. That was the difference to me as far as why Riri worked better here and America did, even though both of them function as MacGuffins. (I should add that this is not a criticism of Xochitl Gomez, who played America and was good in the role, but rather the material she was given.)

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Joe, good points, but IMO at least Rocket and most of the Aquaman stuff seem somewhat plausible. Little ankle wings allowing for jet-fighter-level flight? Well... sorry, but nah.

Exactly. The problem isn't the existence of these fantastical elements, it's that physics and things like that that are in universe rules are being broken.

In other words, a five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut!

 

[Chuck Mayer]

It could if it was super-powered.

 

[dpippel]

In other words, a five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut!

It could grip it by the husk.

 

[Joe Wong]

Exactly. The problem isn't the existence of these fantastical elements, it's that physics and things like that that are in universe rules are being broken.

In other words, a five ounce bird could not carry a one pound coconut!

Maybe those wings are made of a flexible adamantium?

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Maybe those wings are made of a flexible adamantium?

Why adamantium when vibranium would probably work even better (and Talokan certainly has its own source of it), LOL?

I forget now, but was it clear what connection there is between Talokan's vibranium source and the substance their people ingested, which altered them, including Namor (still inside his mother's womb), as such?

_Man_

 

[Joe Wong]

Why adamantium when vibranium would probably work even better (and Talokan certainly has its own source of it), LOL?

I forget now, but was it clear what connection there is between Talokan's vibranium source and the substance their people ingested, which altered them, including Namor (still inside his mother's womb), as such?

_Man_

Aside from it being my attempt at humour (since you LOL'd, I hope you took it in that vein! ), the broader point is that both adamantium (and vibranium) don't exist in the real world (at least, not that we know of). So if we can accept that there is adamantium in Marvel comics (and soon to be in the MCU), then having a flexible version isn't a stretch.

 

[Jake Lipson]

The new Assembled special about the making of this film is now on Disney+.

 

[John Sparks]

...we're surrounded by fan boys!!!

 

[DaveF]

The problem with ankle wings is they look silly. If they looked awesome, no one would care about the “physics”. But they’re ridiculous in a way that undercuts Namor’s presence and villainy.

(I checked my copy of “Marvels” because i was sure he doesn’t have those wings in that comic. But he does. But they are more subtle in the coloring, and in a static image they look good. And clearly they’re such a minor detail in print, I forgot about them.)

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Yeah, they do look kinda odd, admittedly bordering on silly looking the way they're depicted in the movie... that they're not in the comics.

No idea what they could do to improve their visual... but maybe that's just one of those things that just won't translate well from static art to motion picture, particularly since they're trying to make them look realistic enough I guess...

Maybe what they should've done is taken a page from John Byrne's interpretation of Superman's flight ability (as a subconscious, hidden telekinetic power instead) for the Man of Steel reboot back in the late 80's (or perhaps even the Greek god Apollo's winged sandles) and just not actually try to make Namor's flight ability be so (realistically?) dependent on those wings. They coulda just endowed him w/ some other actual way to fly leaving those wings to be more symbolic (or just for maneuverability like rudders) than the true/entire source of that ability.

_Man_

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

The new Assembled special about the making of this film is now on Disney+.

Just finished watching it. These Assembled specials are kind of halfway between the EPK featurettes the marketing team makes and the full-throated documentaries we used to get in the golden age of DVD extras.

A number of things did stand out to me:

• The level of thought and effort that goes into the worldbuilding in these movies is just on a whole other level from the other subfranchises within the MCU. The specificity of the production design and costumes for the new parts of Wakanda, and the way Talokan was designed and executed, is just astounding.
• Ryan Coogler was very cognizant of the fact that Letitia Wright had been cast to play the smartass kid sister with the fun one-liners in the first movie, and this story would require a completely different kind of performance. So he pitched his plan to Wright and got her sign on before moving forward. The love that Coogler and Wright have for Boseman, and the sorrow they feel over his loss, is very evident throughout this special.
• The fact that so many castmembers didn't know how to swim is a sensitive topic, considering the cultural stereotypes that plays into, and I was surprised that it got explored as in depth as it did here. There is quite a bit of tank work for the underwater scenes, as changes to the schedule meant there would be less time for visual effects and so a greater need to capture more in camera to compensate. Mexcian actress Mabel Cadena, who played Namor's cousin Namora, ended up setting the record for holding her breath under water, at around six and a half minutes.
• Domnique Thorne was the runner-up for Shuri when they were casting the first film. They show her audition from the first movie for that role, and she was really good in the role. Like Riri Williams, she is a first generation American born to immigrant parents, and like Riri she attended one of the US's three prestigious private land grant universities (Cornell, though, not MIT) in a STEM major. Because she's an American playing an American, I think I assumed that her accent as Riri was her real accent. But her speaking voice in the talking head interviews is much posher than Riri's accent. I was also a bit surprised to learn that she was cast as Riri Williams by this film's creative team for this team, not by the "Ironheart" creative team.
• Nothing about the CIA subplot or Julia Louis-Dreyfus's role in the movie. It's really focused on the challenge of handling Chadwick Boseman's passing, and building out Namor and his world.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Nothing about the CIA subplot or Julia Louis-Dreyfus's role in the movie.

I remember some article or interview from the past few months in which Coogler said that people think Marvel asked him to put her in there, but it was actually his idea to use the CIA, not a mandate from the studio. I want to be clear that I'm paraphrasing this, so it might not be completely accurate, but it was something like that. Unfortunately, I can't remember where he said that, so I can't cite it.

These Assembled specials are kind of halfway between the EPK featurettes the marketing team makes and the full-throated documentaries we used to get in the golden age of DVD extras.

The most detailed deep dive making of that has been produced for Wakanda Forever is the official podcast, and I would recommend anybody who is interested to go listen to that if you haven't already.

 

[jayembee]

The problem with ankle wings is they look silly. If they looked awesome, no one would care about the “physics”. But they’re ridiculous in a way that undercuts Namor’s presence and villainy.

(I checked my copy of “Marvels” because i was sure he doesn’t have those wings in that comic. But he does. But they are more subtle in the coloring, and in a static image they look good. And clearly they’re such a minor detail in print, I forgot about them.)

I agree, and it was a comment I made (somewhere) when trailers first showed Namor and his ankle-wings in action. I've been Sub-Mariner fan since way back in the day, and never had a problem with the wings in the comics. Because you never saw them in action. In the film, they look rather silly. Not silly enough to ruin the movie for me, but silly nonetheless.

 

[Sam Favate]

Little ankle wings allowing for jet-fighter-level flight? Well... sorry, but nah.

I recall Stan Lee saying that he didn't want his characters to just have the power of flight without something propelling them, like Thor's hammer or Iron Man's suit. He said flying like Superman (who, if you recall, was originally said to be able to leap great distances, not fly) meant that the human body, even a super-powered one, had some means of propulsion, which, of course, it does not. He was at least trying to ground his stories in a little bit of reality. Of course, other writers came along and disregarded this.

(Namor was created by Bill Everett, not Lee.)

 

[Jeff Cooper]

I forget now, but was it clear what connection there is between Talokan's vibranium source and the substance their people ingested, which altered them, including Namor (still inside his mother's womb), as such?

Yes. They specifically showed the plant growing out of the 'Blue Rock' and Namor says as much when he gives the bracelet to Shuri and says it was made from the flower growing from the blue rock.