B&W vs Diva (1 Viewer)

[rodneyH]

Arron, that is VERY interesting since M&K is big supporters of THX, and B&W couldn't CARELESS about THX (IIRC)

 

[Russell _T]

Arron,

I don't remember from your other post if you have ever heard the Divas or not. I have heard both the Divas and the N series as well as some of the CDM NT line. And a lot of other brands. No one is going to argue that B&W doesn't make fine speakers because they do. However between the Diva 6.1, and the B&W N803, you get 90% of the performance and 100% of the build quality not to mention 150% of the service. Within those parameters, I would choose the Divas for $1300.00 over the B&W's for $5000.00. This can be argued all day, but usually by people who already spent their money on the $5000.00 B&W's. I can't imagine anyone who has made the comparison prior to making their purchase would opt for the B$W's unless they had money to burn or they can't get past the snob appeal. I personally would be ill if I found out I had spent $5000.00 on speakers that were that close in performance if they could be had for $1300.00. And if I had, you can bet I would defend them to the death too.

BTW, I don't think that George has to worry too much about what he pays for equipment. I also doubt he has even heard of the Divas since they are the new kid on the block. In the short period of time they have been available, I find it amusing that it is mostly people who paid so much for their equipment that seem so quick to put them down. Given time it looks like the Divas may very well be the one others are compared to. If you haven't heard them yet, try to get a demo. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Regards,

Russ

 

[PomingF]

Well said Russ. With B&W you pay a lot for the brand name & dealer markups. I got my B&W at a bargain and that left me enough change to get the Diva's for a separate system.
PF

 

[Arron H]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Obviously, Diva has a preety good marketing strategy. Copy one of if not the best speaker manufacturer in the world and claim that you are almost as good for a lot less money. Nice job. If Diva succeeds, hats off to them. I still say go with the leader rather than the follower.

 

[Gil D]

PF,
I noticed you mentioned that you had B&W speakers. So I checked you eq list and DAMN you got 801's and some to die for electronics

And that Def Tech setup in the theater is absolutely killer for HT. Did you replace the Def Techs with the Diva setup?
How would you describe the sound of the Diva 6.1 to the 801? Does it have anywhere near the midrange and presence of the B&W? How would the Diva setup compare to a B&W N804, HTM1, N805 system used for both cinema and 2 channel?

 

[Tom Grooms]

However between the Diva 6.1, and the B&W N803, you get 90% of the performance and 100% of the build quality not to mention 150% of the service

Russell _T, don't bite off more than you can chew. I have yet to hear the Diva's but welcome the chance to give them a listen if someone in Saint Louis would like to get together. With that being said.....
90% of the performance : There is a recording studio in England called "Abbey Road". This is probably the most famous recording studio in the world. They use B&W Nautilus monitoring to master some of the finest recordings ever produced. The B&W N802's and N803's were used to monitor Episode 1, Chicken Run, Braveheart, Shrek, Lord of the Rings, etc....
100% of the build quality : Do you really believe at their prospective price points you can compare the two? Take a look at Stereophile Guide to Home Theater (February 2002) and have a look around their plant's. These are hand make speakers built off England's southern coast by some of the finest craftsman in the business. The voice coils are hand wound and they make their own driver from raw materials. Nuff said!
not to mention 150% of the service : When I approached my local dealer and wanted to audition the Nautilus line, They immediately offered to deliver a set to my home for a listen at no charge. The very next afternoon when I arrived home from the office, a van was parked outside. It was the dealer with a brand new set of N803's. The 2 gentlemen uncrated the speakers and set them up in my listing room. I had them here for 3 1/2 weeks before I returned to the store and asked them to demo the JM Labs. It is not possible to get better service than that.
$0.02

 

[PomingF]

Arron, I see you only have 32 posts so presume you must have missed the now debunked 'imitation' theory from way back when the Diva's first caught folks attention. Yes, B&W may be the first to come up with the top-mount tweeter design but Diva sure isn't the first to follow suit.
Speaker choosing is a very personal experience so if what you hear, see & pay soothes your mind then by all means do it. We are all here voicing our opinions trying to offer others alternatives and in the Diva's case more mileage for their hard earn bucks.
PF

 

[rodneyH]

Russell, ya that is why I buy the CDM7NT, b/c I would feel so guilty buying a $5000 speaker--NOOOOOOT

btw, 90% of the performance??? well lets just say that the CDM7NT got a 97 in the HT mag (the highest at that time, until the $19,000 Revels got a 99, so how does that ADD up, well I got a $2000 pair of speakers for $1600 that are 98% (HTmag 97rating of the CDM DEVIDED by the REVELS 99rating), so I end up with 98% of the performance at 8.4% of the price (WOW-that is almost TAX on $19K in LA). NOW THAT SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT VALUE!!!

as for customer service, I don't know if you have dealt with B&W but just as an example, kids have been known to poke in the metal tweeter (if you have them exposed) and B&W has been known to be very gracious in replacing these at NO charge. EVERY b&w dealer I have dealt with has been very good as well.

I don't know why people keep comparing the B&W with a Diva since the sound characteristics are supposed to be TOTALLY different with the ONLY similarity being the looks.

 

[rodneyH]

Also when comparing the "build quality" I don't know if you are super knowledgable about the B&W factory and the process that these speakers go through, but I can tell you that you would be lucky to have 80% of the build quality (and that is nOTHING to be ashamed of), but 100%, come on

 

[rodneyH]

another point, for george to get a pair of $5000 speakers is very flattering considering that there are far more expensive speakers out there that he could afford (and he could probably get them for free), so even at $5000, that is somewhat of a "budget" speaker compared to others out there.

also, Russell, didn't you say that Swan is comming out with a $10,000 speaker???? if so, why rip on $5000 speakers as being too much??? (this is an honest question)

 

[PomingF]

Tom, what you describe about your dealer is considered extraordinary and definitely is not the norm but then of course a lot depends on your previous dealings with him. On the other hand any reasonably intelligent dealer should have taken notice of those interested in the likes of Nautilus and JMLab. What I am most intrigued of is some dealers' no depreciation trade-in within certain time frame policy to keep folks coming back for upgrades.
As to Rodney, I would definitely take HTMag's speaker ratings with a huge grain of salt esp since I audition speakers solely base on their stereo music performance. Don't take me wrong, I believe Revel makes excellent speakers. In fact if not for my addiction on the top Nautilus' highs & midrange Revel (to that extent Aerial) would have been a serious contender. I've only listened to the Nautilus models (not the CDM's) but Russ did both and yet both of us come away with the impression that the Diva 6.1 is very close to if not of equal performance of the lower to mid Nautilus models. Have you listened to the Diva 6.1? In my setup (granted the electronics & room differences) I find the Diva's a very capable performer certainly way beyond expectation given it's price. As for built quality & material, this particular line (SE) of Diva's are designed & built under the specifications & QC of Mark Schifter (who's affiliation with Genesis, Audio Alchemy and now Perpetual Technologies are well recognized within the industry) using materials from an up & coming driver manufacturer and a resourceful environment. Finally look for excerpts/comments from others including some DIY speaker builders on the Diva's exceptional internal structure/component on this and other forums. The fact that Swan has speaker models way beyond the $10,000 mark is totally irrelevant since this particular Diva SE line tops out @ the $1,300 6.1 model and I am sure Swan, like all speaker manufacturers wouldn't mind 'showcasing' their talent by putting out such pricey & yet low demand product. Btw, the N802's are $8,000 pair speakers and I am sure George wouldn't ask for much more than that just to have the B&W logo displayed in his Skywalker Studio.
To Gil, yes the Def Tech's (plus Velodyne) do make a killer HT setup and that's why I am keeping them for my HT at least for now. No, the Diva 6.1 doesn't quite give the same sweet soothing highs & midrange as the N801's but so can't the others except may be the N802 & Maggies. To me talking about Diva's over B&W isn't a case of buyer's remorse for I still love my N801 dearly and am fully aware of the 90% I have to pay to get that 10% extra performance. Did I mention I am addicted to the B&W highs/midrange? It's just that for those on a limited budget not into HT/audio enough to keep their dealers happy by constantly upgrading I believe there certainly are better alternatives. As I mentioned earlier the B&W's also need better electronics hence more $$$ to show up. I did not get to listen in on an all B&W HT setup for my local B&W dealer whom I don't visit much at all only have B&W's in stereo pairs which is fine with me for I don't really buy the idea of high resolution multi-channel music anyway. For those who insist the 802 is 'better' I invite them to play some organ music real loud and the truth will come out. Btw Gil, what's your take on the CDM's & Nautilus?
Gotta go before the darn modem finally kicks me out and wasted all this time. I may have to come back & edit any misspell/misquotes. Cheers.
PF

 

[Russell _T]

Poming ,
Thank you for chiming in for me. Well put. I think your reply is right on the money. I just checked this thread and see that I have incurred the wrath of some B&W lovers who have graciously made my point for me.
I'm know Abbey Road uses B&W speakers and I'm sure they know what they are doing. I also know that many other fine studios choose many other excellent speaker companies including JBL and PMC among dozens of others. I'm also pretty sure that they didn't have the opportuinty to check out the Diva's when they were looking for speakers (not to say they would have necessarily bought them). Also I assume that cost is not an object for these professionals. You guys seem to have just jumped to the defense of B&W without carefully analyzing my post. That just makes my point again.
BTW, the Divas are just as hand built and use the same software as B&W to engineer their product. They have a completely high tech moderm plant. Since most of you have never heard or seen the drivers made by Swans, how can you be so sure they are inferior to the B&W drivers? Because of the price? Maybe it's not that the Divas are $5000.00 speakers but that B&W are really just $1600.00 speakers? I love B&W speakers just as much as the rest of you, and might have bought them if not for the Divas. My dealer showed no such interest as the one that brought them to your door and left them there for 3 weeks. He is the only game in Tucson, and accordngly aloof. I have heard this said about other B&W dealers and I never even received a reply to a couple of emails I sent the company.
In closing, please understand that I am not bashing B&W. As I've said before, they make some of the best product in the world. However please don't summarily dismiss the Diva lineup without first getting all the facts and listening with an open mind. You may as surprised as the rest of who have heard them were.
Regards,
Russ
BTW, Whoever mentioned $10,000.00 speakers to be sold by AV123 wasn't me, although who knows, maybe they are coming up with another product to rock the industry. Also for anyone who may be interested, Swans manufactures a $135,000.00 per pair speaker. Somehow, I don't see this being much of a value either.

 

[Arron H]

Poming,
The fact that Diva did follow suit with a top mounted tweeter design indicates that they are following/copying. Copying one of B&Ws most famous attributes (the top mounted tweeter) is a preety clever way to get your foot in the door. Because there are other companies who are also copying the top mounted tweeter does not cancel out this fact that Diva did as well
I would agree that beyond the top mounted tweeter, the comparison stops. We're talking about a 4 page post comparing apples to oranges at this point

 

[rodneyH]

Arron, great point that has been my contention all along, tehy are different sounding speakers.

JUST as Poming states, I am addicted to the B&W sound. I have a pair of more expensive Maggies in the garage collecting dust and a pair or Vandys in a guest bedroom (stupid to have such large speakers there, but they don't belong in my main system), I also have a pair of OLD JBLs (with a metal tweeter) and a pair of ADS speakers in boxes outside. These are speakers that have been given to me by my dad or other members of my family, BUT I just don't like the characteristics of NEARLY as much as B&W. this is NOT a slam on those companies, but I just prefer B&Ws sound. The have a characteristic that I like and I started out with the 602s and have moved up, the nice thing about B&W is that they have particular strengths and as you move up those stengths just become more refined. This builds great customer loyalty and is a very smart move by B&W.

 

[rodneyH]

Poming, I guess you missed what I was trying to say with the ratings. Some have mentions that the Divas are 90% as good as the 802, or was it the 801?? anyway, my point being, I would rather have 90% (or whatever numeric value they give it) of the performance of the high end B&W, AND AT THE SAME time have that characteristic B&W sound that I LOVE. Why get something with 90% of the sound that sounds totally different, when you can get something that is actually from the same company and have s very SIMILAR sound. Look at it like this, If I loved the Porsche 911 and I didn't have the $ to buy a 911 C4, would I buy another car that is cheaper BUT is NOTHING like the 911, or would I buy a Boxster S?? Or if I like the NSX, would I buy another product or would I buy a S2000 with similar characterstics, the list goes on and on

 

[Russell _T]

It seems that at this point in this thread, all the salient points seem to have been made. We're lucky to have so many quality choices in this hobby, and I'm glad everyone seems to be enjoying the choices they've made.

Later,

Russ

 

[rodneyH]

Russ, I must agree, as I stated earlier, I think that over the past 10-15 years speakers have gotten much better for the $$$, people can actually BUY very good sounding speakers at well under $1000, and very close to around $500, the biggest ones to benefit are We the consumer.

 

[PomingF]

Arron, I think our differences lie upon the fact that your use of the terms 'copying & imitation' implies Diva's decision on using the top-mounted tweeter was based solely on the B&W look alone to sell speakers (to that respect it's evident that many others before had tried & failed poorly) while I attribute their decision on the fact that they realize the sonic benefit of such design (btw I am sure B&W would have made people aware if it's proprietary stuff ) and decide to put in their own effort in making the design work within their own overall speaker design & specifications.
Other than that I agree since both you & Rodney pretty much have your minds made up that anything other than B&W isn't worth listening this discussion is not going anywhere. Happy listening & I'm outta here for the ice hockey & closing.
Btw, Russ check out the $120 tube amps Mike reviewed on HTT.
PF

 

[rodneyH]

looks like the hockey game went over well. btw, I don't think anything except B&W is trash, I like the sound of the revels, those would be my next favorites next to B&W (of course they don't make much entry level stuff).

If I were into silk dome tweeter speakers, I would definately take a hard look at Divas, but I also know that Totems, Dynaudio and Vandersteen make so very smoooooth silk dome tweeter speakers.

btw, do you have a link to the $120 tube amps you are talking about??

 

[PomingF]

Rodney, here you go:
http://www.hometheatertalk.com/ubb/F...ML/000636.html
There are only 10W to each so insensitive speakers (or those with difficult loads such as the Nautilus) need not apply. Should try to e-mail Dan Wiggins first to see if they'll work for you. On the other hand if there's a return policy may be worth trying them out anyway.
PF