AVM-20 Review.....finally! (1 Viewer)

[Randy G]

Kevin Brown,
My brain gets all disconbobulated when you keep confusing the terms Circle Surround and Cirrus Surround...for your information, they are two completely different animals.

 

[John Kotches]

John,

Your POV is in my opinion patently absurd. I see no other way to put this, and apologize for seeming rude.

Let's take an example of a lower priced item, like operating systems....

Does Microsoft give you a free upgrade from Windows 95 --> Windows 98 --> Windows 2000 ---> Windows XP? No. There are R&D costs that have to be paid for to develop the new products and part of that cost is borne by persons that upgrade their version of the OS. But if you want to have the latest and greatest Windows features, you have to upgrade. Some manufacturers give out free upgrade coupons as an incentive to purchase, but this is included in the price of your PC purchase -- and there won't be much wiggle room in the price.

Does a car manufacturer give you a free upgrade as each model year is introduced? Again no.

Why did I pick these particular examples anyway? Well, the Windows family of OSs is software, and a car is hardware. You don't get free upgrades on these when you upgrade.

TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). Anthem/SF had a choice, release the AVM-20 at whatever price the mk II version would be and offer free upgrades when they're released, or, release at a slightly lower price and charge for upgrades on an ad hoc basis for those that choose to upgrade. They chose the second option. I don't feel they had another option to releasing the AVM-20, namely sit on the product until the DPL-2 and DTS-ES and the requisite DSPs were available.

Make an assumption here, that the cost of the upgraded DSPs and the DPL-2 and DTS-ES algorithms sells for US$300. We can assume the licensing cost for DPL-2 alone is US$50 so now you've got US$250 left of the upgrade cost to account for. DTS-ES license (it ain't free), maybe another $50? That means $200. For that you get a new processor card, new firmware and probably some other features that haven't even been announced yet.

So, IMO, it's a fair practice, and as I said earlier, if it's really an issue for you, negotiate it into the purchase price with your dealer.

Regards,

 

[BruceD]

Having been in the product development business myself for the last 10 years for networking products with major suppliers like Intel, Broadcom, National Semiconductor, etc. it is standard practice to give a system manufacturer a deal (like very low cost on the older chips with an equal quantity order for the new chips).

This enables the the manufacturer to benefit 2 ways, by getting a lower cost of manufacturing for the current unit and getting farther up the delivery queue for the new chips when they are delivered.

I'm not saying this is what SF is doing with the AVM-20, as John M. speculated, but it is common.

BruceD

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Randy- I have never heard of Cirrus Surround. Outlaw and Smart (among others) use "Circle" Surround. I think you are confusing Cirrus Logic DPL II decoding chips (and A/D converters, etc.) with "Circle Surround," which is a specific surround decoding method. I just did a quick search on Google. No such thing as "Cirrus Surround".

And Brian and Bhagi-

"Dolby Pro Logic" and "Dolby 3 Stereo" are quite 2 different beasts. DPL attempts to steer all the in-phase material between the (surround) L + R speakers to the (rear) center channel. => It also attempts to remove that material from the surround channels. Dolby 3 Stereo, on the other hand, keeps that material in the surrounds, and simply adds the (rear) center channel info.

Now, as far as I know, genuine (THX) Surround EX decoding uses Dolby Pro Logic, *not* Dolby 3 Stereo.

That is the crux of my "problem": the removal of that in-phase material from a "std" DD/DTS disc when using (THX) Surround EX decoding.

Some others here understand it as well: what does the Anthem (and other newer pre pros/receivers) do to support a "std" DD/DTS disc in a 6.1 or 7.1 speaker set up?

 

[Kevin C Brown]

John- But Windows is in the $100 range. I agree with others, that if I'm paying $3g's for something like the Anthem, a subsequent upgrade to support DTS-ES and DPL should be included. For free.

Just plain good customer support in my opinion.

 

[John Cain]

".... What does the Anthem (and other newer pre/pros/receivers) do to support a "std" DD/DTS disc in a 6.1 or 7.1 speaker set up? ...."

This is the question I keep asking..

-- John

 

[Brian Florian]

Kevin,

In a word: Wrong. The Dolby/THX EX process is a Pro Logic decoder running in the 3 Stereo mode. This information comes strait from Dolby.

Think about it: If it were not so, what would happen to out of phase signals in the two surround channels? They would be discarded as the EX rear is made up of only left (Lt) center (L+R) and right (Rt) channels.

When run in the 3 Stereo mode, the decoder does not give up steering as your post implies. It simply takes what would be sent to the decoders rear outputs and puts it equally in Left and Right (or what is in reality, surround left and right).

 

[Brian Florian]

John (Cain),
I'm not sure why your question is outstanding. ANY THX-EX unit (or any Dolby EX unit) can be asked to play a standard 5.1 soundtrack in EX mode.
Much of the time, as evidenced by popular opinion, this serves the material well. The occasions on which it would not are soundtracks which feature "mono" or predominantly in phase surround sound effects.
Personally I think people get hung up on the feeling that they are "wasting" part of their system if those extra speakers at the back are not being use. Have we been "wasting" 3/5th of our system all these years when listening to stereo music?
Before someone spends the money for extra speakers and amplification, they should be aware of how many "real" EX titles are available and decide if it is worth the additional investment at this time. If they go for it, they can (and IMO should) experiment with applying EX decoding to "regular" titles but should not feel they are "wasting" anything when not using EX.

 

[Brian Florian]

Kevin (Brown),

"if I'm paying $3g's for something like the Anthem, a subsequent upgrade to support DTS-ES and DPL should be included. For free.

So... in your opinion Sonic Frontiers should be charging (approximately) $3,500US instead of $3,199 for the AVM-20 and provide upgrades for DTS-ES and DLP2 for free...months later.

Give me a break. Why not charge $10,000 for it and make all upgrades for the next 10 years free...

 

[AVspec]

Thank you for the review Brian! I have been eyeing this unit for a bit and have been on the fence. Did you use the balanced outputs for you testing or have a chance to try both the balanced and un-balanced outputs? I have read many reports here on the HTF that range from "it make a big difference with the balanced outputs" to "I could not tell".

Also will you be reviewing a Outlaw 950 by chance when they arrive on the scene?

 

[Brian Florian]

Mark,

Unfortunately no. I played with the AVM-20 coupled with the PVA-7 (of course), my Rotel RB-985, and the Smart Theater Systems' 2X150VT, none of which have balanced input.

But from a purely theoretical point of view, I would say using a balanced connection between the AVM-20 and an amplifier should not be "inherently better" as it would depend on the circumstances. How much noise is in the air and how susceptible are the cables to such interference? If the circumstances are "bad", or if you are just running really long lines, balanced lines would certainly be preferred for its CMR of noise. If the amp is RIGHT next to the AVM-20 and the cables have decent shielding, I would be surprised if there was an audible difference though if your amp has balanced inputs, I would use them just for peace of mind.

 

[AVspec]

Thanks Brian. Actually I am using four seperate amps... all QSC EX pro amps and they only have balanced inputs. Now I have been using un-balanced outputs on my Newcastle R945 to the balanced inputs on the QSC and it had been working quite nice, though I would really like to try balanced outputs just for the fun of it.

So... you did not mention about the Outlaw 950 question? I bet there are quite a few here that would be interested in a review of that unit....

 

[Brian Florian]

On the 950, I beleive one of my colleges is pursuing that but I'll verify...

 

[David Schamis]

For those of you who are considering the AVM vs. the RDC-7, I went thru the same thought process a few months ago, and went with the RDC-7.

Why?

1. Available immediately

2. Has DPLII built in, which makes a huge difference and , IMO, a bigger breakthru for Dolby than DD - the idea of waiting around for a major upgrade the day after you buy the thing is nuts!

3. Already received a AAA from Stereophile (and since got the Gold product of the year, behind only the Lexicon MC-12)

4. Some questionable reviews about build quality and overall consistency of older Anthem models

5. Now that I see they are going to charge anoter $300 for the upgrade, the price difference is no longer that big (I paid about $3800 for the RDC-7).

Just my opinion - hope this helps.

David

 

[John Kotches]

Kevin Brown said this:

John- But Windows is in the $100 range. I agree with others, that if I'm paying $3g's for something like the Anthem, a subsequent upgrade to support DTS-ES and DPL should be included. For free.

Just plain good customer support in my opinion.

Kevin,

Do you run a business? This is a recipe for disaster. You've just increased the cost of goods sold and reduced profit margin, maybe even erased any profit they made on the product. The only way they could make this viable is to raise the cost of purchase to the price of the AVM-20 with the upgrades.

Yes Windows is a US$100 product, and they get to amortize their costs over a heck of a lot more unit sales, don't they?

This is something that should be negotiated with ones dealer, because I don't feel that Anthem should be obligated (or even considered as not offering good support) when you are asking for new features on the product (DPL-2 and DTS-ES are new features to an existing product).

If you feel that adamantly that the DPL-2 and DTS-ES upgrades should be included for free, you can always wait until the AVM-20 with these upgrades is for sale, at which point for US$3495, they'll be included for free.

Regards,

 

[Doug_B]

Just got the AVM-20 yesterday; adios 950. Actually, my dealer didn't have a new silver one to send me, so he let me take his demo until the new one comes in. Actually, that works out better for me as I got it sooner and it's broken in already (as I'm currently evaluating speakers that aren't broken in yet). BTW, dealer gave me a very nice discount.

I don't have a problem with the possibility of paying for the DPLII+ upgrade down the road, assuming I opt for it. And if I don't, I'm glad I don't have to pre-pay for it now. Compare this to "upgradable" equipment that never sees an upgrade.

Doug

 

[John Cain]

Hi Brian, thank you for the reply.
My question was I guess not whether or not the AVM-20 would do 6.1 from 5.1, but rather how well does it do it?
It is my understanding that pre/pro/receivers all function slightly different with their implementation of even basic 5.1; so I'm assuming here that there is a wider variability with pre/pro/receivers as they try to implement a faux 6.1 from 5.1.
IOW some units are better than others, so I'm wondering how well the AVM20 does 6.1 from 5.1 based on the discs you auditioned.
I'm also wondering if Dolby EX will be better than THX ex (for 5.1 to 6.1 conversions) since we do not get force fed the THX add-on rqualizations, etc.
-- John

 

[Brian Florian]

John (Cain),
I really hope that Dolby Digital decoders, licensed by Dolby, are not different from one another in their implementation of AC-3 decoding. Feature sets may be different, DAC/sound quality etc will certainly be different, but the actual translation of AC-3 bitstreams into PCM audio data is pretty rigid.
Likewise, THX Surround EX is THX Surround EX from one unit to the next. And like I said, the general consensus is that "most" 5.1 soundtracks work well. I myself am anal about such things so I only use EX when the soundtrack is encoded as such...but that's just me.
FYI, Dolby EX is the exact same thing as THX Surround EX, without the other THX post processes (such as Re-Eq, timber matching etc.).

 

[John Morris]

And your posts are singling out the AVM-20 when ALL Motorola based units, including the popular B&K Ref30 are IN THE SAME BOAT.

Brian F: Nope, the Ref 30 boat sailed long ago... It could only be in the same boat as the Anthem if they launched the Ref 30 now.

To clarify, I am not dissing the sonic value or performance-cost ratio of the AVM-20. I am merely saying that Anthem is making a marketing mistake by charging for a near term upgrade on a brand new product. Then again, Anthem knows their customer base better than me and they probably realize that to the folks that pay to buy a $3300 pre/pro, another $300 is like a drop in the bucket...

 

[Brian Florian]

the Ref 30 boat sailed long ago...

So....its "ok" for B&K to (eventually) sell an upgrade to Pro Logic 2 just because their product has been out for a longer period?

LOL.