AVM-20 Review.....finally! (1 Viewer)

[Herb Kane]

"This unit is not brand new. It has been available for around three months."

That's new enough for me. How about kinda new?

I see other names being thrown around: Lexicon, Meridian, Theta. Maybe I'm wrong here, but does anyone remember the last time one of these other mentioned brands released a new Prepro model and announced an upgrade (for $) almost immediately after release?

Actually, YES. You need to look no further than the SMR-Forum where a number of issues (glitches or bugs) have been discussed regarding the new Lexicon MC-12. Do a search for the past two months -- you might be surprised on the amount of items that have been discussed in that regard.

Specifically, Bart LoPiccolo of Lexicon announced on October 15th, that the new MC-12 would receive an upgrade of many of the music modes that were never released on the MC-12 that are presently on the MC-1. They are: Concert Hall, Church, Nightclub, Panorama,

Music Surround & Catherdral. There will be a fee involved. There will also be an upgrade for a few of the bugs that have been reported at no cost to the purchaser.

You might say that these modes are not very significant. They were significant enough for Lexicon to listen and implement a future upgrade for them. Especially in light of their previous flagship (MC-1) having them.

It may take several months for the bugs to get worked out. And when they do, this pre/pro should be able to stay very current for years to come.

BTW, my intent is not to belittle Lexicon. You asked for an example and I have provided one. I too am a Lexicon owner (MC-1).

Regards,

Herb.

 

[Richard Burzynski]

Thanks Herb.

The crux of my argument has been that Anthem was entering into unchartered waters. I stand corrected. I'll let this one go. Sorry guys.

Rich B.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Ajay- You should really read my post again...
I didn't say Sony, and no where did I say that the Denon receiver "would sound better than a $3k+ pre/pro".
I said that I put it's sound quality up against it. And yes, I would certainly expect the AVM-20 to sound better. But $2G better, *and* without DTS-ES and DPLII?
(I also specified the Denon as being used as a pre/pro.)
Sound quality isn't really the issue anyway. (Obviously an issue if you're going to buy it, but not the question at hand.) It's a combination of product engineering, marketing, and timing. It's a $3200 preamp/processor that doesn't have 2 features that have been available in even $500 receivers for quite a while now. Wouldn't even be so bad if you could do the upgrade at home, but you probably have to send/bring it back, to get the hardware swapped. Not easy to install, de-install, then re-install a pre/pro.
I *still* believe, that the DTS-ES/DPL II upgrade should be free for buyers in the 1st 6 months or so.
And, I don't even view it as Anthem's "fault". More like Motorola putting them in that position because Moto itself is late with the hardware/software.
...And now I wonder if there will be *another* upgrade that AVM owners will have to shell out for:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=35173
Hee, hee. That one *should* be charged for...

 

[AjayM]

...And now I wonder if there will be *another* upgrade that AVM owners will have to shell out for:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf...&threadid=35173
Hee, hee. That one *should* be charged for...

At least Anthem has made plans for this upgrade, there will be a lot of unhappy pre-pro owners out there when they have to buy all new units to make use of this new stuff.
There's actually another unit that has lots of cool stuff, and has been very well supported with upgrades (most of them for free), and that's the TagMcLaren, anybody know how much those things go for?
Andrew

 

[BruceD]

AJAY,

Last time I checked the TAG AV32R was going for $4500 list,

but the new 192R will have a roll-your-own purchase methodology.

You'll be able to order it with the things you want, like analog bypass, no video, etc.

I think I'm circleing the wagons on a custom Tag (no video) and the upgraded Bryston (no video).

BruceD

 

[John Morris]

I think most of us would get quite the shock if we opened up our gears and took a look inside and found what little there actually is inside. Are the components really worth all that much...no...is the engineering really worth the price...no... BUT, the fair market value,and the prices charged by the competition, and the prices people are willing to pay for perceived existing/non existing sound differences are what drive the market.

Wow, Tom. What a powerful yet true statement. It is that perceived value, whether due to "real" sonic differences or to snob appeal that makes home audio such an enjoyable and frustrating hobby.
I just spend a month with a B&K Ref 30 and I'd be willing to bet that few folks could tell the difference between that unit and an AVM-20 in a well balanced and set up system. Yet, the Ref 30 costs $1K less. Additionally, I'd be willing to bet that once the Outlaw 950 is released, it will sound as good as the AVM-20 during DD and DTS movie playback using their unbalanced outputs. Hopefully, we'll find out soon. In the meantime, it is comparisions between such uncomparably priced units which makes this hobby all the more enjoyable...

 

[John Morris]

Ajay: you may have missed my earlier question, so I'll repeat it for you.

You Said:

Ajay: How many of those units you looked at were released during the last 90 days?

Were you able to find any of these units that are new... i.e., released for sale within the last 90 days or so?

 

[AjayM]

Were you able to find any of these units that are new... i.e., released for sale within the last 90 days or so?

Probably none of them, it's hard to find the damn release dates for products, but none of them in the last 3 months that I can think of. I think the new version of the Krell HTS will be close, but I think it's a little more than 3 months. Classe just introduced a new "budget" pre-pro and it doesn't offer any 6.1 or 7.1, and it has a list price of $2700. Lexicon offered the MC12 with a bunch of bugs this year, these are bugs and not features...things that make your almost $10k pre-pro not work as advertised and people will have to pay for that upgrade. And more than a few of those manufactures released products this year.
So again, if you say that a product is less than 6 months old they should give out free upgrades (even though 1st yr business school teaches business owners to build "free" stuff into the price of the product), so in 6 more months when the upgrade is released and the product is then 9 months old, where is the problem?
Hmmm, maybe they'll release the new Lexicon DC-X, sure it costs $250,000 but you'll get free upgrades for your life-time (of course the price is pro-rated for for older or younger people).
Andrew

 

[Tom D]

Well John you are right it can be enjoyable and frustrating. Especially when you have to remove a complicated and expensive item such as a preamp so you can part with it for "x" number of days while it is being upgraded....and the rest of the system is sitting idle....:frowning:
Experience has taught me that more expensive does not mean better ie. features, quality, reliability. In the end if the source material is questionable (cd, dvd) then the rest of the system is compromised as well.
I think sonically yes there may be differences subtle as they may be, the question is would we be able to tell the difference in a double blind test between a good mid priced receiver and a higher priced pre/pro....

 

[AjayM]

I think sonically yes there may be differences subtle as they may be, the question is would we be able to tell the difference in a double blind test between a good mid priced receiver and a higher priced pre/pro....

Subtle differences? I really have to wonder how many people have heard a really good sounding system? I think far to many people are listening to a bunch of internet newsgroup crap where some guy can't tell the difference between a $500 reciever and a $12k amp. There's a store down here that I frequent (all to often) that actually hasn't done a whole lot of accoustic treatments to the rooms they have, the rooms are laid out in terms of the cost of equipment they have in them. And there is a night and day difference between going into their "reference" room and the low-end room (the one with $300 recievers). There's a huge difference between going into the "reference" room and the next lowest room (the one with $2k+ recievers). The reference room is driven by a Krell pre-amp and amp, Martin Logan speakers, Sony 9000 DVD player, Sony ES CD Player, etc.
Or maybe I was just "hearing" things when I went and auditioned some Martin Logan speakers, first the guy has them playing through the super Yamaha reciever ($2k+), and they didn't sound all that great and I had to crank up the volume on the yammy to get to a listenable (enjoyable) volume. I asked him to switch over to a $700 B&K stereo pre-amp and a B&K amp and the difference was amazing. The power levels were pretty close, but those ML's were a little much for the Yamaha (as compared to the B&K seperates).
So if you're ever in S. Florida come on by, we'll go to a couple of store's, blindfold you and pull you into some rooms and you can tell us how a mid-level reciever will sound the same, or almost the same as a mid-level set of seperates.....we'll even make sure to use the same cables for all the tests
Andrew

 

[Tom D]

LOL, that is funny, (the blind folding and dragging part).
What I meant to say was, given the same speaker set up at the same volume levels in the same environment, using the same source materials, would there be a night and day difference. Some differences will be noticeable but are they worth the price of admission.
Lately I have been looking around at different retailers to see what is available...the avm20 in my neck of the woods is 4500 megalo mart (cdn) dollars. Plus a good amplifier. Feature wise it is lacking asper the thread. Where as a company such as Denon with a higher turn over rate per unit can pack more features into a rcvr that is state of the art. Just for comparison sake the newly introduced Pioneer flagship is using the same Analog Devices 32 bit floating point chipset as the Denons. Parasound and others are converting analog and digital inputs to 24 bits in there processors, without analog pass through.
There will be sound differences, the type and strength of a power supply, reserve capacitance, component shielding, component tolerences (variances), and suppliers - the real question is...are these differences worth the money...especially in light of knowing that even the source material has flaws...the audio codec (compression) for dd and dts for example.
and then...add in the ever changing features that we see today...pl2,dd 6.1 (matrix),dts 6.1 (matrix), dts 6.1 (discrtete), no bass management for dvd-a or sacd...but coming...
The days of buying over priced hardware I think is coming to an end. Consider Faroudja, Price of admission 3 - 4 years ago was sky high - today you can by a Pany rp91 dvd player using his name at a pedestrian price.
I think we are searching for something that is unattainable. A good analogy to all this in terms of sonics, is the placibo. Are some of the differences we here real or do we just want to hear differences because some one said we should hear a difference...
Ahh what a tangled web we weave...

 

[AjayM]

I think we are searching for something that is unattainable. A good analogy to all this in terms of sonics, is the placibo. Are some of the differences we here real or do we just want to hear differences because some one said we should hear a difference...

I see to many people who automatically put down something because it costs more than their own acceptable standard. And then rationalize their own purchases while putting down others (not so much in this thread, but in others). And then using the ol' placebo effect excuse to show how smart they are in their own purchases (ie "I bought the Acme reciever for $299, and DBT show that nobody can hear a difference between it and one of those $250,000 super systems over at Unattainable Audio")
Andrew

 

[Tom D]

Andrew you have some very good points, this I will not argue.All I was trying to say was that there are very few companies out there who make there products "in house", so invariably they buy components from other manufacturers. If I am not mistaken these "upgrade" components were available

3 to 5 months ago.

In terms of marketing Anthem chose what they thought was the best approach to take. All products big or small come with disclaimers that say something to the effect of: we reserve the right to make improvements without notification.

However about prices charged...that is market driven and not necesarilly real world costs. You know, target group, age group,income group...

As for sonics, yes that is personal taste and budget,however to paraphrase the computer industry "garbage in,garbage out"...

 

[AjayM]

As for sonics, yes that is personal taste and budget,however to paraphrase the computer industry "garbage in,garbage out"...

Of course, it always is. But I doubt there is an HTF person who has maxed out his gear to the point that he can't make a single other upgrade (and if there is, have they thought about adopting?).

If you've never heard a real, real high end system in a accoustically treated room before you really should. Well, maybe not if you don't have self control and can't adhere to a budget very well (I went from DPL and 50w/channel to WAY off the deep end in to short a time). It's amazing what you will hear. And I don't think you can honestly call that the placebo effect...you just have to experience it. I would have never thought it was possible, but I've listened to music on a nice (not even one of those SUPER $$$ show-off) system and it was literally an emotionally moving experience....that doesn't happen to the same extent at home.

Of course now I've wandered so far off topic....

Andrew

 

[Tom D]

Wondering off topic, non sense, we are merely voicing our opinions. Hey...Have a safe New Year.