AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights" (1 Viewer)

[ted:r]

Regarding the new AFI list of the 100 best films, to me it was notable that "The African Queen" fell from 17 to 65 and "Wuthering Heights" (1939) from 73 to off the list.

I was wondering if their general unavailability on DVD in some way contributed to this. Perhaps some voters took this into account, or, because of their unavailability had not seem them for a while and somehow degraded their greatness accordingly.

I'd venture there are perhaps other reasons also, notably the whimsy of taste, but I feel these two films were perhaps hobbled because of their current situation.

 

[oscar_merkx]

now that's what I call fascinating indeed

 

[Richard--W]

Your theory has merit.

 

[TravisR]

I certainly can't say that it isn't possible but I don't think each vote cast for a movie means that someone sat down and rewatched that movie again. They looked at the list and voted based off of their knowledge of the nominated movies.

In other words, if a voter planned on voting for Citizen Kane, they probably didn't watch it again. They just knew what they wanted to vote for.

 

[Steve...O]

Ted, I agree with you. Some of the films that rose substantially on the list had their increases attributed to new DVDs of those titles.

 

[AlanP]

The whole AFI, has no credibility to me.
It is a SHEER JOKE.
I mean what criteria are they using and whom is voting ??
Ridiculous, is what AFI, is.
OK, it is ten years let's all vote what the greatest films are.
"GONE WITH THE WIND" should have been in the top 3.
"THE WIZARD OF OZ" also, should have been in the top 5.
"THE GODFATHER" number 2, ridiculous !!!!
"VERTIGO" should have been in the tope 3.
"Casablanca" is so over rated.
Where were "GIANT" and "Ben Hur" ??
I missed the beginning, or did they not make it ??

 

[Charles Ellis]

True, Ted- look at how silent films like Sunrise and The General have risen because of new availability on DVD. To paraphrase what was said in Field of Dreams- If you will make a DVD, people will buy. Sadly, in the case of these two venerable unreleased classics, it's a case of 'out of sight, out of mind".

 

[Richard--W]

Hey, I was about to post these exact words ... so I'll reiterate

Out of sight, out of mind.

 

[JohnRice]

AlanP, if the AFI is a complete joke, your post equally matches the description.

It's a Poll. Who in their right mind expects to agree with it? I'm not much for making these lists myself, but I still enjoy seeing what shows up. During the show, I decided to renew the Top 20 I did a few years back for ymdb and only 4 of my 20 are even in the AFI 100. So what? Does that make any of us wrong? In fact, i consider at least one of the AFI 100 (Forrest Gump) to be one of the worst movies ever made.

Regarding the original post, it's ironic that I was recently having a conversation about how some movies seem to be revered for little reason. My example was that Casablanca is no great shakes, and nowhere near as good as The African Queen. Personally, I don't think Wuthering Heights has any place on the list. So shoot me.

BTW Alan, Ben-Hur was in there around the 90s.

 

[Adam_WM]

Another thing that certainly makes the AFI list somewhat "un-rankable" is how it is tallied. Voters are asked to pick 100 of the 400 nominated movies (in no particular order). They are also asked for their Top 5 for tie-breaker purposes only. THe movies with the most selections within the "100" the voter picks are at the top. So technically, when a voter picks 100 movies, movie 100 carries the same weight as movie #1. Other than the tiebreakers, there is no way to vary your selection.

 

[David_B_K]

AlanP, you made some good points, until you wrote: Which goes to show, that as JohnRice said, these things are purely subjective. CASABLANCA is perfect Hollywood entertainment, IMO. Every time I watch it, I am in awe of how well everything clicks in that movie. IMHO, Giant does not belong on the list at all, so there.

I didn't watch the show. Those "movie list" shows are always bogus.

 

[Patrick McCart]

I think availability has some to do with it, but also consider how Snow White and E.T. have been out of print for 4-5 years. Didn't the DVD for Wuthering Heights go out of print around 2001-2002?


Also, Giant is an overrated overlong good film and didn't belong on the list. Casablanca is basically the perfect Hollywood movie. The Third Man is the worst casuality since it should have been on the top 25. The AFI should be embarassed that they included Titanic (a good film, but really only notable for the box office and production values) while dropping that. They really need to revise the list immediately.

 

[CineKarine]

I watched the show this time as I was curious to see how the past decade had affected the list. 23 titles were replaced by others I believe - quite an impressive number.

Of course, it all so purely subjective - I don't think there are 25 films in there that I would chose as the finest Hollywood films ever made. A lot of highly acclaimed films bore me to death (Citizen Kane for one) and so many lesser-known ones strike me as immeasurably better. For instance, I have always MUCH preferred Heaven Knows, Mr. Allison to The African Queen. My favorite Hitchcock film is Rebecca. It's just a matter of opinion, like everything else

But I do have a problem with the fact that the 400 nominees did not even include Rio Bravo!!!???

Was thrilled that Singin' in the Rain reached #5 though

I do think that DVD availability made a difference in some of the results. Certainly last year's DVD of The Searchers had something to do with its going from #96 in 1998 to #12 this time around!!! I would not be surprised if the unavailability of Wuthering Heights and The African Queen accounted for their lesser showing or complete disappearance to a certain extent too.

And as classic film lover, I lament the fact that there were not enough pre-1960 films in there. Yet so many people my age I talked to thought there were too many! Go figure!

It certainly works to create discussions, that's for sure.

 

[BethHarrison]

IMO, Giant isn't even a good film. I would be majorly peeved if anyone considered it in the top 100. African Queen deserves a decent Region 1 DVD release, and I can't think for the life of me why it hasn't received one.

As for Titanic, don't get me started on how much I hate that one. If you want a good Titanic story, go for A Night To Remember.

 

[Carter of Mars]

Clearly the lack of a DVD effected the standings on these two movies. Does anyone know what the hold up is?

 

[Simon Howson]

What exactly is the criteria that helped to decide this list? Evaluating films in this way is completely subjective.

There are hundreds of films that could replace all of those that are on the list. Yet we just don't know about them because other films get discussed so much instead.

 

[ted:r]

I tend to lose track of what films are in or out of print once they are in my greedy little hands. As for "Snow", Disney re-releases its movies every 7 or so years to a big burst of media hoopla so they keep their interest high. I was unaware "E.T" had gone out of print but I remember it being released a few years ago to a big hoopla also. (That's when I bought it. ) And it will most likely be released again in a promotional blitz.

I bought my first DVD player in 2001, so "Wuthering Heights" has been OOP during my entire tenure. I'd venture there are a great many people out there who if they saw it in their local store would put it on their shelves and its reputation would be restored a bit. I'm sure that's true for "The African Queen".

The major exception is "Sunrise" which is not easily available. (I got my copy during the Fox promotion.) But its (well-deserved) rep as a great silent film probably helped it. And it probably snared a few votes from those who wanted to abandon "Birth Of A Nation".

I'm not debating how good or bad the list is. It's a list whose primary purpose is to get people talking about great films. I don't doubt that practically anyone would add or subtract some films from the list, or move others substantially up or down. I'm not even saying "WH" or "TAQ" deserve to be on the list. I just think they have a substantial disadvantage by being generally not available.

PS. Ok, I'm unhappy that "The Third Man" and "All Quiet On The Western Front" dropped off, happy that "Sunrise" and "Who's Afraid Of Virginia Woolf?" dropped in, annoyed that "Titanic" dropped in, happy that "Amadeus" and "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner?" dropped off, annoyed "The Deer Hunter" (actually rose!!!) and "Forest Gump" remained on.

PPS. "Casablanca" and "The Godfather" are great films. Live with it

 

[Corey]

ugh at Citizen Kane. It's so booooooring and overrated.

 

[JohnRice]

What other way is there? You make that sound like a negative. The fact is, evaluating films is subjective, always.

Oh yeah, regarding Wuthering Heights. I was wondering what the fuss about availability was. I completely forgot my copy is R2. Regarding The Deer Hunter. I think it's a great film. In my opinion, far too many people judge it based on the director's future work, which is something I see happen a lot.

 

[TonyD]

to you, not to me.

the list should be just a list and not be a 100 to 1.
it should not have any number attached to a movie.

i think titanic is not a great movie.

it is a fascinating thing to see at least after the thing starts to sink.

other then that, eh, seen it all before.
titanic is not one of the 100 best movies, to me.