AFI and the Fall of "The African Queen" and "Wuthering Heights" (1 Viewer)

[TravisR]

That's what I always say too. You should just take the list and alphabetize it and call it '100 Great Movies You Should Watch But There's Still Other Great Ones Out There'.

 

[Ed Moroughan]

While off-topic Ben-Hur was #100. I don't know if the lack of a DVD for The African Queen contributed to it's fall but it deserves a restoration and release. SOON!

 

[Corey]

well i didn't say it was boring and overrated to everyone. if that was the case, it wouldn't have been on the list. use your noggin!!

i thought titanic was superb growing up, but now that i'm older, the film is pretty bad scriptwise.

 

[TonyD]

that why i said "to you"

no need to be rude about it.
"use your noggin"
[url=https://static.hometheaterforum.com/imgrepo/7/71/htf_imgcache_8996.gif] [/url]

 

[Simon Howson]

I disagree. I think one of the best approaches to studying films is to look at how the form and style of films have changed throughout film history. The changes are usually based on the influence of industry, economics, technologies and a range of other factors. Studying films in that way can be objective, because conclusions are made that best fit available evidence.

Defining a cannon of so called 'classic films' actually restricts the ability to understand more about film. This is because film is a mass art that needs to be examined as such. A lot of film criticism and academic film studies is based around interpreting a few so called 'classic films'. This process is ultimately subjective, and priviledges a few films instead of seeking to understand how cinema works as a mass medium.

The argument breaking out in this thread shows how futile it is trying to rank films, because a person who just doesn't like a particular film will never conceed that it is actually a great film.

Attempting such a ranking is completely flawed, because a) there is no universal criteria to determine the quality of a film and b) the people that end up making the judgements often have no idea about the historical context in which the film was made. So how can they say that it is a particularly good example (or counter example) of that industry or film making movement? There is no structure or reason to it, they could think of the first 100 films that came to mind and produce a similar looking list.

 

[Mike Frezon]

I would absolutely agree with the original premise that the absence of AQ and WH on DVD has certainly made it difficult for most film fans to be familiar with those films in recent years.

I haven't seen African Queen in several years. I went to order Wuthering Heights a few years ago when I learned it was OOP.

I count myself among those who would have a hard time including those two films on any subjective film list as I've had no access to either of them for a long time.

 

[Robert Crawford]

The part of your argument that I bolded is not true, at least as it pertains to me. Maybe, I'm an oddity, but I have to think that there are other people like myself who have similar thought pattern in which they dislike certain film(s), but who also realize and then accepts a film(s) greatness as a representation of the artform called film.

Such is the case with Tootsie, Nashville and Sophie's Choice in this year's list. In the prior list in which some titles fell off, they're The Jazz Singer, Fargo and The Birth of a Nation.

Again, maybe, I'm on the branch by myself, but I would think that there are some people that voted in this poll that gave their consideration of this list in a larger scope of what needs to be thought of, beyond their personal film opinion and have devise their listing in a similar fashion as I have.


Crawdaddy

 

[Simon Howson]

Can you explain your criteria for disliking a film, while appreciating that it is a good representation of film art? There is no clear benchmark or criteria is my point, so that makes list building an extremly difficult exercise. I talk to people in English departments who think that Merchant Ivory films are the best example of high brow cinema, yet I'm of the opinion that even a second rate film noir is more representative of film art than any M/I film.

But I see your point...

 

[seanOhara]

No it shouldn't. Its presence on the American Film Institute's original list of the 100 greatest American films was a total disgrace. Sure, it technically fit the criteria for an "American" film since Selznik fronted some money for it, but that's obeying the letter and not the spirit -- it's no more an American film than Kagemusha, which was also financed by Americans.

 

[John Hodson]

Blimey, if we took all the American financed films out of the BFI Top 100, we'd hardly have a list at all...

 

[JohnRice]

I was thinking the same thing, though I would not call it a "disgrace", but The Third Man is hardly the only one. The same applies to both Lean movies as well as possibly Ben-Hur, just for starters. Just imagine the uproar if Lawrence of Arabia, decidedly NOT an American film, was left off the list.

 

[Patrick McCart]

Two of the stars are American (Welles and Cotten) and one of the producers is an American (Selznick). In contrast, Lawrence of Arabia just had American producer (Sam Speigel) and A Clockwork Orange only had an American director (Kubrick). The Third Man's story deals with an American traveling to Vienna to meet another American. LoA does have Arthur Kennedy's supporting character. I can't think of anything American about A Clockwork Orange.

 

[ReggieW]

Speaking of David Lean and LOA, did anyone notice that Dr. Zhivago is now off the list? I believe that it was somewhere in the 20's on the last list.

That's quite a drop.

Seriously, I really hope the AFI doesn't pull this crap and revisit the 25 male/female legends list... or whatever they called it. I found the list, not to mention the criteria they used to determine exactly who qualified as a "legend," dubious in the first place. I guess it's all good for publicity and ratings. Ranking films is one thing, but classic actors?

I'll pass.

 

[Corey]

they need to take Ava Gardner and Lillian Gish off thatlist and put Oliva de Havilland and Doris Day on there.

 

[ReggieW]

Why should they take Lillian Gish off?

She's literally like the 1st lady of cinema, much like Helen Hayes was the 1st lady of theatre.

She had a longer film career (1912-1987) than probably any other woman in cinema. I believed Bette Davis said that when they were doing "The Whales of August" That Director Lindsay Anderson had complimented Lillian on her closeups in which Davis chimed something like "she should give good closeups, hell, she was around when it was invented." Heck, her career lasted longer than most people lived and she was an awesome actress who could perform in any genre. Lillian should stay.

Lillian rant over.

I agree with you about Doris & Olivia, but this is the very reason why the AFI shouldn't have made such a list. I personally scratched my head and wondered how Orson Welles got on it as an actor, but somehow Paul Newman, Montgomery Clift, Charles Laughton, Errol Flynn & Charleton Heston all managed to miss the boat.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Actually, what you're ranting about now is exactly why this list was made. AFI probably wants even more debate and high spirited discussion.




Crawdaddy

 

[Corey]

Well I actually agree with you, but it just seemed plain wrong to leave Olivia off and one of the biggest box office champs of all time, Doris. I highly think that if the list did was redone, Bette Davis would get the #1 spot.

It's mighty strange how nowadays Betty Grable is negleced when she was the the top female B.O star for 11 years straight.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Tell me which Doris Day movie is among the best 100 movies ever made? Same with Grable? Also, this best 100 movie list has nothing to do with box office.




Crawdaddy

 

[Corey]

Actually, I wasn't talking about the 100 greatest movies list. I was referring to the 50 greatest legends list.

 

[Kenneth_C]

Not exactly true. As indicated on the ballot (which can be downloaded), one of the criteria the AFI asked voters to consider in making their selection was:

Popularity Over Time
Including success at the box office, television and cable airings, and DVD/VHS sales and rentals.