UHD Review A Few Words About A few words about...™ -The Godfather(s) 50th Anniversary Restoration -- in 4k UHD (4 Viewers)

[Vincent_P]

Theatrical prints are not simply "copied from negatives without post production tampering". Grading/color timing (i.e., "post production tampering" as you put it) has always been a part of the process. The only one-light prints without "tampering" would be workprints used during editing.

Vincent

 

[Robert Harris]

Sorry ... Which "not a single word" did you find untrue?
The 2007 Yellow & Red Points being pumped up by 4 & 1?
Paramount releasing more prints, that more people saw in its over 2 year run at the theaters, copied from the original color negative without post production tampering?
Gordy only changed the initial release prints shown in March 1972. And many of those prints did not survive from the demands of their long engagement theatrical runs, ruined by older & inferior movie projectors that many theaters had.

And if Gordon sadly passed away in 2014, how was he involved in this new restoration?

I'd rather be correct than right, so humbly, if I am wrong ... where?

Please give us background as to the source of each fact, along with proof. Just a basic fact-check, please.

 

[Robert Harris]

How do you feel about Coppola having removed the "handle" at the end of the reel here?

Vincent

I’m not seeing a problem, as the footage may have been there in error, due to an odd series of events.

I checked our internal inspection reports, and found a hand-written note from my assistant referencing a possible re-cut and re-conform at that shot from an earlier version.

For the record, presumably based on numerous re-cuts, there are two sets of masters on the film.

If one takes a careful look at the shot in question, a slight bump is evident going back to all earlier versions. Although not overly evident, it can be seen in the 2007 Blu-ray.

Conjecture on my part.

The shot in question was not originally a reel end. When changes were made, and it became such, an additional three seconds were re-cut to the negative from the trim.

When a further change was made, and the shot was no longer the final in the reel, the 72 frames were inadvertently left in place during the heat of post-production.

A bit more complex than might be expected, but you asked for my thoughts.

As an aside, A Better Place is a nice film, and worth viewing by readers.

 

[Joe Birrittella]

Please give us background as to the source of each fact, along with proof. Just a basic fact-check, please.

I'd be happy to, providing you tell me which fact comes into question? To me, it's been common knowledge since sometime around 1990, so I'll have to do some digging to locate the source; and it won't come from the internet.

So again, which info are you referring to?

 

[Robert Harris]

I'd be happy to, providing you tell me which fact comes into question? To me, it's been common knowledge since sometime around 1990, so I'll have to do some digging to locate the source; and it won't come from the internet.

So again, which info are you referring to?

Anything referencing print orders, post-production, distribution, color correction, the work performed in 2007, or Mr. Willis. No need to discuss the extra dissolve added in 1997, or the equalized dissolve handles. Those are considered common knowledge.

 

[Joe Birrittella]

Anything referencing print orders, post-production, distribution, color correction, the work performed in 2007, or Mr. Willis. No need to discuss the extra dissolve added in 1997, or the equalized dissolve handles. Those are considered common knowledge.

Some of your questions are answered on the 2007 Blu-ray Special Features, under Godfather Restoration. I'd have to watch it again to refresh my memory.

Will have to dig up where the source came from when Paramount rushed out additional prints in 1972, to meet public demand; and disregarded Willis' notes on the original color timing.

I do know that the 1997 25th Anniversary release of The Godfather did not have his post production Kodachrome look. All VHS, Laser Disc & eventually, the 2001 DVD release followed the truer 3 Strip Technicolor look and that is an easy reference to compare, that you won't need me for.

I'll be happy to oblige, but it's going to take some digging on whether it's in one of my Godfather reference books, authored by Peter Biskland or Harlon Lebo; or if it was lifted from A Film Magazine I no longer own. Give me some time, even if it takes a day or 2 and I'll get back to you.

"By the way, I admire your Restorations very much" (Hagen handshake ); including Rear Window, Vertigo, Lawrence & Spartacus. Your results are absolutely breathtaking to watch.

 

[Robert Harris]

Some of your questions are answered on the 2007 Blu-ray Special Features, under Godfather Restoration. I'd have to watch it again to refresh my memory.

Will have to dig up where the source came from when Paramount rushed out additional prints in 1972, to meet public demand; and disregarded Willis' notes on the original color timing.

I do know that the 1997 25th Anniversary release of The Godfather did not have his post production Kodachrome look. All VHS, Laser Disc & eventually, the 2001 DVD release followed the truer 3 Strip Technicolor look and that is an easy reference to compare, that you won't need me for.

I'll be happy to oblige, but it's going to take some digging on whether it's in one of my Godfather reference books, authored by Peter Biskland or Harlon Lebo; or if it was lifted from A Film Magazine I no longer own. Give me some time, even if it takes a day or 2 and I'll get back to you.

"By the way, I admire your Restorations very much" (Hagen handshake ); including Rear Window, Vertigo, Lawrence & Spartacus. Your results are absolutely breathtaking to watch.

Then possibly you’ll take my word for the fact that, outside of a daily print, there were no prints produced in 1972 without Mr. Willis’ palette.

There was a second run of GF prints in 1974, but none survive as they were Eastman Color.

The 1997 was derived from a poor dupe, without proper printer functions, and with blacks showing a green cast.

The later video releases may have been off the mark, as they were also dupe derived.

All 1972 prints were from a couple of dye transfer runs - possibly from two sets of printing matrices, and all based upon the same reference print - the final approved answer print, with signed cards - now archived at the Academy Archive. Aside from that, there was an Eastman printing CRI, which was the source of many Eastern European prints (with the same palette), along with one or two 70mm prints, produced for Japan.

That unique print was also run beside data in creating the 2007 dpx files, which are the source of everything until 2022.

Paramount did rush out more prints in 1974, to go along with the success of GFII, but those were all Eastman Color - timed to match the same palette - and all struck from the orig negative on auto-select printers.

If you find anything in articles in conflict with what I’m telling you, I would surmise that the authors were either technically confused, or didn’t do their homework.

 

[Joe Birrittella]

Then possibly you’ll take my word for the fact that, outside of a daily print, there were no prints produced in 1972 without Mr. Willis’ palette.

There was a second run of GF prints in 1974, but none survive as they were Eastman Color.

The 1997 was derived from a poor dupe, without proper printer functions, and with blacks showing a green cast.

The later video releases may have been off the mark, as they were also dupe derived.

All 1972 prints were from a couple of dye transfer runs - possibly from two sets of printing matrices, and all based upon the same reference print - the final approved answer print, with signed cards - now archived at the Academy Archive. Aside from that, there was an Eastman printing CRI, which was the source of many Eastern European prints (with the same palette), along with one or two 70mm prints, produced for Japan.

That unique print was also run beside data in creating the 2007 dpx files, which are the source of everything until 2022.

Paramount did rush out more prints in 1974, to go along with the success of GFII, but those were all Eastman Color - timed to match the same palette - and all struck from the orig negative on auto-select printers.

If you find anything in articles in conflict with what I’m telling you, I would surmise that the authors were either technically confused, or didn’t do their homework.

Wow! Thank you for taking the time to detail all this. My opinion of the 4 yellow & 1 red remains unchanged, but I stand corrected on everything else and am happy to retract my "facts".

Thank you for the info. Memory can be a dangerous thing. I saw Godfather in '73 at a Sunday matinee at 16 yrs old. I came home and raved about it so much, that I convinced my dad to come see it with me the very next night. On Tuesday, I began reading the novel and my love affair began for this epic, tragic story, unlike any film before.

Thx again, Robert
I owe you!

 

[PMF]

Is it known what the circumstances were that led to Japan’s request for Paramount to strike a custom print in 70mm?

Also, were there any useful reference points that were elicited from this 70mm print that might have aided RAH and his team in their restoration efforts?

 

[Joe Birrittella]

Wow! Thank you for taking the time to detail all this. My opinion of the 4 yellow & 1 red remains unchanged, but I stand corrected on everything else and am happy to retract my "facts".

Thank you for the info. Memory can be a dangerous thing. I saw Godfather in '73 at a Sunday matinee at 16 yrs old. I came home and raved about it so much, that I convinced my dad to come see it with me the very next night. On Tuesday, I began reading the novel and my love affair began for this epic, tragic story, unlike any film before.

Thx again, Robert
I owe you!

Mr Harris,
In thinking back to 1973, my family owned a 1964 Emerson Color TV console, that faithfully blew out the color tubes every 2 or 3 years. Back then, color TV repairman had steady work & made a decent living with house calls. So any movie I saw at the theater or drive-in would look spectacular by comparison and this is what must've happened when I was so wowed with Godfather's original color palette by Mr Willis.

 

[Kent K H]

No can’t blame him but this happens almost weekly on his site, he is super dramatic about just about everything.

I definitely can't argue that.

 

[owen35]

This may be a first on the web. An actual discussion of the importance of selecting the proper point for a change-over.

love it!

I don't know about anyone else, but I have very vivid memories of certain films and their reel changes. As one who would see films over and over again (Jaws = 50 times) you became attuned to such things. There was a reel change in Jaws after the scene between Brody and Shawn at the dinner table as Hooper arrives for a visit. Scheider's line to his son "Get out of here.." always got truncated at that change and to this day I still expect it to see it when I watch it on disc.

 

[DVDvision]

I recall an old interview with James Cameron where he was discussing something similar re: leaving shots at the heads and tails of reels a little long to account for potential print damage during the course his movies' theater runs. I wonder if he's ever considered removing some of those "handles" built into his 35mm-shot films in this digital era...

I suggested to the editor in chief of Premiere magazine a feature dissecting film language then & now and the subject of reels, how their disappearance with digital editing have affected storytelling.
Indeed, smarter filmmakers used to edit their films as reels, choosing change points, and even better, putting together reels that could be removed without damaging the story (ie the director's cut just reinstate missing reels).
The Terminator has end reel shots like a long shot like Reese walking out of the Tiki Motel, pausing and going away in the street, that makes a nice change of rhythm. These consciously placed shots made up the film language then, and are completely gone now.
Also another example, the coda scene in The Terminator is a very short reel, allowing foreign countries to replace the end credits scrolls with a localised version economically.
Reels were like Chapters in books, different from Chaptering on DVD which never follow actual reels. When asked how to Chapter The Avengers back in the 90's, I consciously decided to chapter at commercial breaks point only, because that was the original intent.
It could be fascinating to take apart The Godfather films and see what happens in each reel, how the film are structured that way.

 

[titch]

I suggested to the editor in chief of Premiere magazine a feature dissecting film language then & now and the subject of reels, how their disappearance with digital editing have affected storytelling.
Indeed, smarter filmmakers used to edit their films as reels, choosing change points, and even better, putting together reels that could be removed without damaging the story (ie the director's cut just reinstate missing reels).
The Terminator has end reel shots like a long shot like Reese walking out of the Tiki Motel, pausing and going away in the street, that makes a nice change of rhythm. These consciously placed shots made up the film language then, and are completely gone now.
Also another example, the coda scene in The Terminator is a very short reel, allowing foreign countries to replace the end credits scrolls with a localised version economically.
Reels were like Chapters in books, different from Chaptering on DVD which never follow actual reels. When asked how to Chapter The Avengers back in the 90's, I consciously decided to chapter at commercial breaks point only, because that was the original intent.
It could be fascinating to take apart The Godfather films and see what happens in each reel, how the film are structured that way.

Reel change placements were a bit like to side breaks on LaserDiscs. Sometimes the break appeared well-chosen, occurring in a manner as to heighten the tension or increase the humour. I can't remember how The Godfather films had their side breaks placed on the LaserDiscs.

 

[DVDvision]

The Alien 3 side break was indeed really great, but that's different from the reel aspect of storytelling.
Reels dictated how stories were told for decades, including The Godfather saga.
A producer could say "ditch reel 4" and they would get the final theatrical version. There's a whole aspect to how reel and film technology inspired filmmakers to edit and re-edit parts of the film, to add longer shot at tails end, that had dictated filmmaking for decades, that is basically completely unexplored in books or features. I think I'm going to make a YouTube video about this, but I would need to search the old versions of The Godfather released on home-video, to see if one have reel change markers.

 

[PMF]

Dario Argento's SUSPIRIA has some pretty bad reel change choices, a few of them coming at the end of very important "big" scenes and vintage prints tend to be chewed up during really great scenes as a result (i.e., the "opening murder" scene is its own reel in and of itself, and the "barbed wire room" sequence is also the end of a reel). I kept that in mind when editing my little 16mm opus A BETTER PLACE and very carefully chose where the reel changes would fall. I recall an old interview with James Cameron where he was discussing something similar re: leaving shots at the heads and tails of reels a little long to account for potential print damage during the course his movies' theater runs. I wonder if he's ever considered removing some of those "handles" built into his 35mm-shot films in this digital era…

Vincent

Vincent_P,

Is A BETTER PLACE accessible? If so, please Post or PM me as to where I might be able to obtain. Sounds interesting, as I have appreciated your observations on a regular basis. Thanks.

- PMF

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I’m trying to remember what relatively recent film this happened with - it was from the era when film prints were still being made but after most theaters had gone to the platter system. So maybe something within the last twenty years or so. One of the reels had a scene near the end that concluded with a fade or cut to black. Then, a new scene faded in, and then immediately after the start of the new scene, the reel change was meant to happen. But it wound up being problematic because many of the theaters assumed the fade to black was the end of the reel, and inadvertently cut out the very beginning of the next scene. I can’t remember which film it was but I remember seeing it a few times and depending on where I saw it, it was missing a portion of that scene.

 

[Robert Harris]

I’m trying to remember what relatively recent film this happened with - it was from the era when film prints were still being made but after most theaters had gone to the platter system. So maybe something within the last twenty years or so. One of the reels had a scene near the end that concluded with a fade or cut to black. Then, a new scene faded in, and then immediately after the start of the new scene, the reel change was meant to happen. But it wound up being problematic because many of the theaters assumed the fade to black was the end of the reel, and inadvertently cut out the very beginning of the next scene. I can’t remember which film it was but I remember seeing it a few times and depending on where I saw it, it was missing a portion of that scene.

In the UK especially, Eastman prints - both 35 and 70 - were produced with a tiny round punch every 4 (or 5) frames. Line up a single hole to the frame line, and one would know the offset, especially in fades.

 

[Robert Harris]

Is A BETTER PLACE accessible? If so, please Post or PM me as to where I might be able to obtain. Sounds interesting, as I have regularly appreciated your observations. Thanks.

See on Amazon

 

[Robert Harris]

The Alien 3 side break was indeed really great, but that's different from the reel aspect of storytelling.
Reels dictated how stories were told for decades, including The Godfather saga.
A producer could say "ditch reel 4" and they would get the final theatrical version. There's a whole aspect to how reel and film technology inspired filmmakers to edit and re-edit parts of the film, to add longer shot at tails end, that had dictated filmmaking for decades, that is basically completely unexplored in books or features. I think I'm going to make a YouTube video about this, but I would need to search the old versions of The Godfather released on home-video, to see if one have reel change markers.

Are you seeking cue marks, or to know where reels end?