Blu-ray Review A Few Words About A few words about…™ Last Train from Gun Hill – in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[Robert Crawford]

A review from Highdefdigest.com that finds the image problematic:

"Contrast is on point without any blooming and a natural layer of grain creates a richly film-like presentation… up to a point.

Now, motion blur is to be expected during camera pans as someone rides across the plain and dramatic action sequences. From the lowest 8mm formats to 8K 120fps digital photography, it’s just a normal side effect of filming movement. And for the first third of the film, this appears natural without issue. But something kicks around the 24-minute mark when Beldon and Morgan meet up the motion blur becomes unnatural looking. Simple gestures like raising a hand, pouring a drink, turning around, or pulling spent cartridges from a revolver - all look like the respective actor just entered the Speed Force for a few frames. It’s this blurry herkey-jerky effect that became increasingly distracting and forces me to kick this otherwise perfect transfer down.

To make sure I wasn’t nuts, I tried this on three different setups and it was always present. Looking at the disc architecture, the film itself only runs 26.5 gigs of a BD-50 disc. As a whole, there are roughly 15 gigs and change of unused disc space that could have been used to give this transfer some more breathing room. I might be over-nitpicking this but it bugged me every time it cropped up - especially because the rest of the image is so damn beautiful. Taken as a whole, this is still miles and away better than the old DVD, but it comes with its own set of issues. Some may not be bothered by it, but I thought it was bad enough to knock a point and a half off an otherwise perfect score."

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Looks like an issue that some are more susceptible than others for bothersome sake.

We talked about that review earlier in this thread.

 

[Matt Hough]

This isn't the first time such a difference in visual experiences happened. I remember a brouhaha that erupted around Criterion's Howard's End and my subsequent review. Scores of people found screen door effect throughout the presentation, but I played it on my equipment using three different players (same plasma TV), and never saw any of it. It happens.

 

[Robert Harris]

This isn't the first time such a difference in visual experiences happened. I remember a brouhaha that erupted around Criterion's Howard's End and my subsequent review. Scores of people found screen door effect throughout the presentation, but I played it on my equipment using three different players (same plasma TV), and never saw any of it. It happens.

“What do you mean, ‘it happens…’” - Mrs. Marcus

 

[Rodney]

“What do you mean, ‘it happens…’” - Mrs. Marcus

Yeah, @Matt Hough what kind of an attitude is that, "These things happen"?

 

[cineMANIAC]

This is quite possibly the best-looking Blu-ray I've watched to date. Holy cow! Too bad Paramount isn't into 4K much.

I did not see any anomalies on my setup. I must be one of the lucky ones who don't perceive flaws like this.

 

[DukeTogo84]

Can anyone who has NOT had any issues with the motion blur, post some pictures of some of the fast moving scenes that have been posted here and at Blu-ray.com? It would be beneficial to see how much of an impact equipment might be able to make.

 

[sbjork]

Just watched the disc tonight and didn't see any really noticeable ghosting or motion artifacts when things are actually in motion. Couldn't reproduce the ghosting in the scene mentioned previously. Here is a quick unretouched cell phone snap shot off of my projection screen (so forgive the fact that the colors look off). This is using an Oppo 205 projected via a JVC RS2000. Upscaling is being performed by the Oppo, with both Motion Enhance and Clear Motion Drive turned off. (I did try turning both of them on and it didn't make a difference, so motion interpolation doesn't seem to be the problem.) No ghosting at all, just a bit of expected blurriness on Quinn:

 

[Robert Crawford]

Just watched the disc tonight and didn't see any really noticeable ghosting or motion artifacts when things are actually in motion. Couldn't reproduce the ghosting in the scene mentioned previously. Here is a quick unretouched cell phone snap shot off of my projection screen (so forgive the fact that the colors look off). This is using an Oppo 205 projected via a JVC RS2000. Upscaling is being performed by the Oppo, with both Motion Enhance and Clear Motion Drive turned off. (I did try turning both of them on and it didn't make a difference, so motion interpolation doesn't seem to be the problem.) No ghosting at all, just a bit of expected blurriness on Quinn:

View attachment 102402

Yeah, but did you enjoy the Blu-ray and movie?

 

[sbjork]

Yeah, but did you enjoy the Blu-ray and movie?

I submitted a review elsewhere, but the short answer to both questions is yes, and yes!

Maybe sometime more familiar with the film can answer one question that I had about it. The ADR when Quinn tells the sheriff to untie the wagon for Douglas near the end of the film doesn't sound like anything else in the film, or even like Quinn at all. Was that line dubbed in later down the road to replace some missing elements, or has it always sounded that strange?

 

[Robert Crawford]

I submitted a review elsewhere, but the short answer to both questions is yes, and yes!

Maybe sometime more familiar with the film can answer one question that I had about it. The ADR when Quinn tells the sheriff to untie the wagon for Douglas near the end of the film doesn't sound like anything else in the film, or even like Quinn at all. Was that line dubbed in later down the road to replace some missing elements, or has it always sounded that strange?

Yeah, it's always been there, I think it was some dubbing issue going back to the original film elements. It kind of reminds me of a scene in "In Harm's Way" when Brandon de Wilde's voice sounds quite different from his normal speaking voice. I won't go into that particular scene, but those that know "In Harm's Way" well, will recall which scene I'm talking about after Kirk Douglas slaps around Patrick O'Neal.

 

[Chewbabka]

Just watched this, I saw nothing untoward. In fact, it looked spectacular, and I loved the movie (first ever viewing).
If I’ve learned anything since buying my 65” OLED earlier this year (my first large or high-end TV), it’s that VistaVision looks freaking amazing.

 

[Pictureman]

The issue, if it is an issue, seems to be equipment dependent.

I first tried the disk on a newer Sony player and high definition TV and the motion blur, a sort of strobe effect, was very evident. Player and TV have various picture enhancements but I have them all turned off.

On an older Panasonic player and "HD Ready" TV, which can accept the HD signal but has a maximum resolution of 720p, the effect is greatly reduced, only seen because I knew where to look.

Finally, using a no-frills Sony player and an Epson HD projector the disk plays perfectly, with no artifacts visible. I am most pleased, as this is where I want it to play!

 

[Robert Crawford]

The issue, if it is an issue, seems to be equipment dependent.

No offense, but I think most of us came to that conclusion a while back.

 

[Pictureman]

That's fine. Sorry I bothered.

 

[Robert Crawford]

That's fine. Sorry I bothered.

You shouldn't be sorry, I'm just stating the reality that many of us came to that same conclusion.

 

[Nick*Z]

IMO, there aren't many quintessential westerns made after WWII.

The Magnificent Seven
The Searchers
The Good, The Bad and the Ugly
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
The Sons of Katie Elder
Broken Arrow
One-Eyed Jacks
The Gunfighter
The Left-Handed Gun
Bend in the River
How The West Was Won
Shenandoah
Shane
Vera Cruz
Ride The High Country
Once Upon A Time In The West
The Outlaw Josey Wales
Jeramiah Johnson
Unforgiven
Winchester '73
High Noon
Man of the West
The Man from Laramie
The Furies
The Naked Spur
True Grit (John Wayne Version)
She Wore A Yellow Ribbon
Fort Apache
Rio Grande
Rio Bravo
Two Rode Together
Cheyenne Autumn
The Big Country
3:10 to Yuma (1957)
Forty Guns
Johnny Guitar
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
The Wild Bunch
Red River
McCabe and Mrs. Miller
Dances With Wolves
Tombstone
El Dorado
The Quick and the Dead
Ride Lonesome
Guns for San Sebastian
The Hanging Tree
My Name is Nobody
Little Big Man
Duel in the Sun
High Plains Drifter
The Professionals
Django (1966)


Not to mention the fringe westerns (movies with a western theme, not quite a part of the legit cannon...)
Blazing Saddles
Annie Get Your Gun
Seven Brides for Seven Brothers
Lonely Are the Brave
Hud
Giant
Wild River
East of Eden
The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas

 

[sbjork]

Yeah, it's always been there, I think it was some dubbing issue going back to the original film elements. It kind of reminds me of a scene in "In Harm's Way" when Brandon de Wilde's voice sounds quite different from his normal speaking voice. I won't go into that particular scene, but those that know "In Harm's Way" well, will recall which scene I'm talking about after Kirk Douglas slaps around Patrick O'Neal.

There's some less less than perfect ADR in other places in Gun Hill, but that's to be expected for the era. That one stood out to me because it really did sound like someone else dubbed the voice years later. Haven't seen In Harm's Way in ages so I don't remember that moment, but I'll be picking up that disc eventually and I'll check it out.

Regardless, it's a great transfer for a memorable film. The only real shame is that we will doubtless never see it released on 4K UHD. Which in a sense is understandable, because at this point the economics of releasing a movie like that on UHD wouldn't make sense for Paramount, but it's still a shame.

 

[Robert Crawford]

The Magnificent Seven
The Searchers
The Good, The Bad and the Ugly
The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
The Sons of Katie Elder
Broken Arrow
One-Eyed Jacks
The Gunfighter
The Left-Handed Gun
Bend in the River
How The West Was Won
Shenandoah
Shane
Vera Cruz
Ride The High Country
Once Upon A Time In The West
The Outlaw Josey Wales
Jeramiah Johnson
Unforgiven
Winchester '73
High Noon
Man of the West
The Man from Laramie
The Furies
The Naked Spur
True Grit (John Wayne Version)
She Wore A Yellow Ribbon
Fort Apache
Rio Grande
Rio Bravo
Two Rode Together
Cheyenne Autumn
The Big Country
3:10 to Yuma (1957)
Forty Guns
Johnny Guitar
Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
The Wild Bunch
Red River
McCabe and Mrs. Miller
Dances With Wolves
Tombstone
El Dorado
The Quick and the Dead
Ride Lonesome
Guns for San Sebastian
The Hanging Tree
My Name is Nobody
Little Big Man
Duel in the Sun
High Plains Drifter
The Professionals
Django (1966)


Not to mention the fringe westerns (movies with a western theme, not quite a part of the legit cannon...)
Blazing Saddles
Annie Get Your Gun
Seven Brides for Seven Brothers
Lonely Are the Brave
Hud
Giant
Wild River
East of Eden
The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas

I think you're missing my point about the word "quintessential" western, as I was referencing westerns not strictly being a western story. Most westerns after WWII, incorporated other themes/elements such as noir, melodrama and psychological angles into their storylines. IMO, westerns became more adult-oriented and complex where you just didn't have the good guys wearing "white" hats and the bad guys wearing "black" hats as in many of the pre-WWII westerns that had simpler story-telling.

As to your list, you will see that many of them are among my "100" All-Time Favorite westerns that I'm watching again in 2021, as I track my progress in doing so in this thread.

 

[tenia]

The issue, if it is an issue, seems to be equipment dependent.

It's not equipment-related, the issue is baked on the disc, ie in the on-disc files, so whoever plays the disc will go through the issue.
However, some people might not be sensitive enough to detect it, and some equipment might not be 100% transparent to what's on the disc and hide the issue somehow (and people giving reports based on such equipment should either have this knowledge in mind or explicitly say so), but not seeing or being able to display it isn't the same as the issue not existing or being equipment-related (like for when a player doesn't have its latest firmware).

Multiple scenes are showing visible ghosting issues, making (in particular) fast arms and/or hands gestures looking faster than they should, as if I enabled an 100Hz-type option on my TV. The HD Digest review is interesting by mentioning it seems to kick in around the 24h minute and indeed, before that, fast gestures are showing a very usual motion blur that doesn't ressemble what happens past that. Compare for instance the drinking at 13 min 04 with Douglas' hand at 22 min 43 or at 26 min 36. It also appears, though in a different fashion, at 37 min 26, making a character's silhouette weirdly duplicated. The whole hand-cuffing sequence at 46 min also has Douglas' hands' movements looking bonkers, his hands sometimes moving so fast it almost looks like there are a few frames missing. There's also another quick moment at 74 min 12, where Douglas turns around in a weirdly rendered manner. The most egregious examples to me was at 52 min 35 and Anthony Quinn's arms' movements, at 82 min 23 and the people running in the background, and the horse 89 min 58. There's also Rick's head's movements at 90 min 03.

I understand people at blu-ray.com wondering if frames were mistakenly blended together, because that's exactly how it looks when it happens.

Finally : I double-checked this on my computer after witnessing it on my Panasonic 50G20 + PS3 and wondering what the hell was happening. Of course, because it's on the disc, I could replicate it on my computer, and of course it shows up when screencapturing the relevant frames because it's in the files (and thus in the whole US pressing). I've included a few here, taken from the aforementioned moments. I screencaptured in 1920x1080 the relevant consecutive frames to show the issue frame by frame. I have the original captures in PNG if needed but the ones I have uploaded are converted through Photoshop in JPEG (not that it'd change anything regarding this specific matter).

As a whole, I wouldn't say it's "that" bad in the sense that it felt bothering to me during quite specific movements, meaning everything else felt problem-free. However, when it happens, it felt really weird and problematic.

Last Train from Gun Hill

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And here is a selection where it's quite visible :











It's a shame as it's an otherwise gorgeous restoration (if only To Catch a Thief new restoration could have looked like this...), but I wonder what happened here.

 

[tenia]

Following up on the above, it turns out the Australian disc doesn't show ghosting at all.

Last Train From Gun Hill : Screenshot Comparison

Make comparison of screenshots

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It's a totally different encode and authoring, so it suggests that either Imprint managed to fix it or, more likely, Paramount's encode is the culprit. It's surprising because from what I gathered, the digital 4K stream available online also shows ghosting, so I suppose Paramount pretty much screwed up both of these assets. I hope that they haven't produced DCP with this issue too.

Unfortunately, the Imprint encode isn't as transparent as the Paramount one in terms of high frequencies, which means that despite the BD format being 16 years old and the AVC codec 18, we still can't have nice things.