A Few Words About A few words about...™ Heaven's Gate -- in Blu-ray (2 Viewers)

[Ignacio]

I saw the original release several times in LA before it got pulled. It did look gorgeous, not what we are seeing in the BR. My biggest complaint, however, was the removal of the intermission in the BR. Although the film needs it, it is such a memorable moment with John Hurt disappearing into the plume of the train's smoke. It's a shame that was sacrificed.

The Library of Congress has the 70mm premiere showprint of HEAVEN'S GATE which they showed about 9 years ago. Would be great if they did that again.

I miss the intermission too.

The Blu-ray is not perfect (as I said I prefer the original colors, that I saw in a very good 35mm print with Dolby Stereo in early 2012) but at least the film was restored at a time that I had strong doubts that it would be seen just in HD.

 

[Terry Watson]

I saw the original release several times in LA before it got pulled. It did look gorgeous, not what we are seeing in the BR. My biggest complaint, however, was the removal of the intermission in the BR. Although the film needs it, it is such a memorable moment with John Hurt disappearing into the plume of the train's smoke. It's a shame that was sacrificed.

The Library of Congress has the 70mm premiere showprint of HEAVEN'S GATE which they showed about 9 years ago. Would be great if they did that again.

Also the removal of the subtitles!

 

[owen35]

Also the removal of the subtitles!

Yes! I forgot about that. I've actually edited my own version of the film (still runs 3+ hours) and found all the text for those missing subtitles and put them back in my version. They are very revealing and to remove them (especially as Walkin is leaving Jim's bedroom) is really a disservice to the film.

 

[mskaye]

One of the greatest days of my life was the day in 2002 when I was privileged to spend an afternoon picking the brilliant Mr. Zsigmond's brain while he was in New York doing location scouting for JERSEY GIRL. What an incredibly warm and gracious man he was (is)!
Vincent

He was a very gracious man. An artist and a legend. Met him at Paramount on the infamous Sliver!

 

[PMF]

One of the greatest days of my life was the day in 2002 when I was privileged to spend an afternoon picking the brilliant Mr. Zsigmond's brain while he was in New York doing location scouting for JERSEY GIRL. What an incredibly warm and gracious man he was (is)!
Vincent

Although I didn’t come anywhere as close to an experience such as yours, I did have the two day privilege of simply observing Vilmos Zsigmond at work while on the set for The Witches of Eastwick. I do hope, Vincent_P, that the memory of your conversations with Mr. Zsigmond shall never fade

As for Heaven’s Gate et al, I saw it on week one. Only a couple of people were in attendence. I never understood this films banishment. I left the theater being blown away by the entire work. It remained indelible in every sense. Please, someone, tell me why the Cimino backlash meant that all others involved were so wrongfully overlooked for rightful Oscar nominations such as cinematography, music, set design, costume or for John Hurt & Isabelle Huppert.

I grabbed this Criterion BD on Day One, and hope that they will re-issue Heaven’s Gate on a 4K/UHD disc.

 

[PaulRossen]

Although I didn’t come anywhere as close to an experience such as yours, I did have the two day privilege of simply observing Vilmos Zsigmond at work; while on the set for The Witches of Eastwick. I do hope, Vincent_P, that the memory of your conversations with Mr. Zsigmond shall never fade

As for Heaven’s Gate et al, I saw it on week one. Only a couple of people were in attendence. I never understood this films banishment. I left the theater being blown away by the entire work. It remained indelible in every sense. Please, someone, tell me why the Cimino backlash meant that all others involved were so wrongfully overlooked for rightful Oscar nominations such as cinematography, music, set design, costume or for John Hurt & Isabelle Huppert.

I grabbed this Criterion BD on Day One, and hope that they will re-issue Heaven’s Gate on a 4K/UHD disc.

Also saw HG opening week. Probably day number 2. It only played 1 week roadshow and I believe it was at the Cinema1 in NYC . While everything you say about the work of the actors and behind the camera folks are spot on I totally disagree about the film as a whole. It was one of the most disappointing times I’ve had viewing film. HG was in short terrible. Scenes went on and on. It seemed as if they would never end. The whole sequence at Harvard(?) seemed like an amateur working with unlimited budget. Which imo actually was the case. Never saw the shortened version so I don’t know how it played. The whole movie reminded me of the Wedding scene in The Deer Hunter. It just went on and on. And to think that that picture won Best Picture of the year while Apocalypse Now didn’t . Over the years I’ve tried to really like this film renting the videos etc Would love to give it a proper second try but I’m sure it no longer exists in 70mm .

 

[Malcolm Bmoor]

HG was in short terrible.

It doesn't work on this forum to dismiss anything, however dreadful you think it is. I agree about this film but you'll receive extremely rude answers from people who won't accept the reality of gross self indulgence from the director. If he'd been spending his own money it might have been a different situation.

I've seen it many times, including the two cinema versions in 70mm, and appreciate the photography whilst finding the plot ludicrously overblown (and historically dishonest) and far too thin to be stretched to its inordinate length.

Strangely enough I understand the cumulative effect of leisurely construction but all these years later I think HG should be generally admitted to be a curious folly with limited attributes but worth seeing once as a cinema artifact.

The shot of Kansas streets near the start of the second section is stunning however many times it's seen.

I very nearly left HTF when I was attacked most strongly and rudely for suggesting that a devotion to films celebrating exteme violence as entertainment was irresponsible as such 'entertainments' are inevitably part of the distorted psyche of those obsessed with guns and killing.

This has been a little peaceful objectivty for Christmas.

And now we can return to outraged emotion .....

 

[mskaye]

HG was in short terrible.

It doesn't work on this forum to dismiss anything, however dreadful you think it is. I agree about this film but you'll receive extremely rude answers from people who won't accept the reality of gross self indulgence from the director. If he'd been spending his own money it might have been a different situation.

I've seen it many times, including the two cinema versions in 70mm, and appreciate the photography whilst finding the plot ludicrously overblown (and historically dishonest) and far too thin to be stretched to its inordinate length.

Strangely enough I understand the cumulative effect of leisurely construction but all these years later I think HG should be generally admitted to be a curious folly with limited attributes but worth seeing once as a cinema artifact.

The shot of Kansas streets near the start of the second section is stunning however many times it's seen.

I very nearly left HTF when I was attacked most strongly and rudely for suggesting that a devotion to films celebrating exteme violence as entertainment was irresponsible as such 'entertainments' are inevitably part of the distorted psyche of those obsessed with guns and killing.

This has been a little peaceful objectivty for Christmas.

And now we can return to outraged emotion .....

Like it or not, quibble with its historical accuracy or don't, The Deer Hunter connected with audiences because it packed an emotional wallop and the performances/casting/cinematography/writing/direction worked. It was complex, rich, imagistic and had a singular approach. It placed us in a unique part of America that no one had experienced before. It wasn't about Vietnam per se. It was a little Altman, a little Scorsese, a little Peckinpah. Heaven's Gate, as beautiful as it looked and as ambitious as it wanted to be, has zero emotional wallop. And I think that's the main take-away. A lot of very ambitious and beautiful set pieces and very little connection to characters or story.

 

[Sultanofcinema]

I attended a Critics screening at Cinema One and was told that Cimino had two Cinemeccanica projectors flown in for this screening. Joel Siegel, Gene Schalit and Rex Reed were in the audience. Possibly Denis Cuningham also. This was the ORIGINAL uncut version of the film with an intermission. Now, it was known that the success of this film hinged on MGM buying UA at the time behind the scenes. The film was flawlessly projected and there WAS APPLAUSE at the end. I read the reviews of these critics at the screening (I still have the clippings) and there were comments that some of the film was shown out of focus (you must give me the names of your oculist) and that the crowd threw popcorn at the screen and booed. NEVER HAPPENED. Result UA obtained by MGM down the road. Political screening? You decide.

 

[Stefan Andersson]

Interesting bit of info:

"I saw an Uncut (no BBFC cuts to animal cruelty) 35mm of the 219 min Roadshow Version (at the Prince Charles Cinema, UK), with original Entr'acte music (the 2000 MGM DVD uses a different Version of the number from the 1999 Rykodisc CD before switching back to the film mix [only a fraction of the actual version of the number can be heard during the fade-in to Act 2])."

Source: post 76 here:

Will Around the World in 80 Days ever get a special deluxe edition like The Wonderful World of The Brothers Grimm?

I've actually been wondering about that for years. Thank you for clearing that up. In the past when this came up, the forum members were convinced that the negative had turned to pink, we didn't know much more. I applaud your efforts and hope this progresses. Actually negs go blue. Wouldn't...

www.hometheaterforum.com

 

[mskaye]

I attended a Critics screening at Cinema One and was told that Cimino had two Cinemeccanica projectors flown in for this screening. Joel Siegel, Gene Schalit and Rex Reed were in the audience. Possibly Denis Cuningham also. This was the ORIGINAL uncut version of the film with an intermission. Now, it was known that the success of this film hinged on MGM buying UA at the time behind the scenes. The film was flawlessly projected and there WAS APPLAUSE at the end. I read the reviews of these critics at the screening (I still have the clippings) and there were comments that some of the film was shown out of focus (you must give me the names of your oculist) and that the crowd threw popcorn at the screen and booed. NEVER HAPPENED. Result UA obtained by MGM down the road. Political screening? You decide.

As a former studio publicist myself, critics screenings in NY were 10 critics and 1000 other guests in a big theater - in this case Cinema One. Screenings were overbooked because there's nothing that gets execs angrier than an empty house at an All Media screening. Rex, based on his review, wasn't one of those applauding. (Did Rex applaud at anything besides Myra Breckinridge?) So there could be two things happening simultaneously here. A lot of people in attendance and applause and the critics still hating the film (one other thing, some big critics HATE to see films at All Media screenings and request private screenings. In this case, I dont think Heaven's Gate was screened early for anyone (execs and cast included per reporting.) Certain critics also are some of the most tight lipped poker faced people you will encounter. They will not tip their hand and I doubt they were applauding. And do i think HG got a raw deal and unfairly maligned? yes. But i also think it's a poorly conceived mess of a film despite its beauty. I think Mike Nichols wasted just as much money on Catch 22, as Spielberg on 1941. w way less controversy. Cimino wasn't popular, was a bit arrogant, and HG was a poster child for excess. Cimino was an outsider and didn't play the game. PS - you know who applauds the loudest at All Media screenings sometimes? The employees/guests of employees who were invited to help fill the seats

 

[mskaye]

Like it or not, quibble with its historical accuracy or don't, The Deer Hunter connected with audiences because it packed an emotional wallop and the performances/casting/cinematography/writing/direction worked. It was complex, rich, imagistic and had a singular approach. It placed us in a unique part of America that no one had experienced before. It wasn't about Vietnam per se. It was a little Altman, a little Scorsese, a little Peckinpah. Heaven's Gate, as beautiful as it looked and as ambitious as it wanted to be, has zero emotional wallop. And I think that's the main take-away. A lot of very ambitious and beautiful set pieces and very little connection to characters or story.

and re: The Deer Hunter what a cast ! DeNiro, Cazale, Streep, Savage, CHRISTOPHER WALKEN in an Oscar winning performance. Five amazing actors -as well as others too like G Dzunda with great chemistry. I love how the actors are directed in TDH. Heaven's Gate had good actors Walken, Isabelle Hubert. Richard Masur, Kris Kristofferson, Jeff Bridges, John Hurt but cumulatively nada. All the impact of a hard boiled egg.

 

[cinerama10]

As a former studio publicist myself, critics screenings in NY were 10 critics and 1000 other guests in a big theater - in this case Cinema One. Screenings were overbooked because there's nothing that gets execs angrier than an empty house at an All Media screening. Rex, based on his review, wasn't one of those applauding. (Did Rex applaud at anything besides Myra Breckinridge?) So there could be two things happening simultaneously here. A lot of people in attendance and applause and the critics still hating the film (one other thing, some big critics HATE to see films at All Media screenings and request private screenings. In this case, I dont think Heaven's Gate was screened early for anyone (execs and cast included per reporting.) Certain critics also are some of the most tight lipped poker faced people you will encounter. They will not tip their hand and I doubt they were applauding. And do i think HG got a raw deal and unfairly maligned? yes. But i also think it's a poorly conceived mess of a film despite its beauty. I think Mike Nichols wasted just as much money on Catch 22, as Spielberg on 1941. w way less controversy. Cimino wasn't popular, was a bit arrogant, and HG was a poster child for excess. Cimino was an outsider and didn't play the game. PS - you know who applauds the loudest at All Media screenings sometimes? The employees/guests of employees who were invited to help fill the seats

I saw the film on it's opening day in 70mm in NYC.There were very few people in the audience at the morning session. One guy asked another is he had read the New York Times review which I seem to recall was woeful.The film was taken off after a week.

 

[Sultanofcinema]

I saw the film on it's opening day in 70mm in NYC.There were very few people in the audience at the morning session. One guy asked another is he had read the New York Times review which I seem to recall was woeful.The film was taken off after a week.

I came out of my screening and people were at the box-office asking to refund their advanced tickets. I went down to Jerry Ohlinger's Movie Material Store on West 3rd right after and was telling the gang there about this.

 

[PMF]

I came out of my screening and people were at the box-office asking to refund their advanced tickets. I went down to Jerry Ohlinger's Movie Material Store on West 3rd right after and was telling the gang there about this.

Jerry Ohlinger’s. I haven’t heard his name in years. I remember his store quite well. Such a great, great place.

 

[SD_Brian]

HG was in short terrible.

It doesn't work on this forum to dismiss anything, however dreadful you think it is. I agree about this film but you'll receive extremely rude answers from people who won't accept the reality of gross self indulgence from the director. If he'd been spending his own money it might have been a different situation.

I've seen it many times, including the two cinema versions in 70mm, and appreciate the photography whilst finding the plot ludicrously overblown (and historically dishonest) and far too thin to be stretched to its inordinate length.

While I certainly respect your opinion of Heaven's Gate, I am curious to know, since you don't like it, why you've "seen it many times?" Professional obligation? Masochism? Strapped in a chair, Clockwork Orange-style and forced to watch while it played on a continuous loop? It's an awfully long movie to make yourself sit through multiple times if you don't like it, so I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Malcolm Bmoor]

so I'm genuinely curious ....

That's a very fair question and the answer is probably secret admiration allied to fatal fascination. Knowing the production story from FINAL CUT adds a dimension but it's also true that after seeing it for the second time, which was the NFT full length 70mm way back, I was sure I'd never see it again and that conviction was repeated both times I watched the Blu-ray on my large screen.

However, there's now definitely no reason for another look .... unless I play it so that somebody else can have that vital first (and only) viewing.

As I said, I think it should be seen at least once for the positive reasons of its quality and the negative ones of its folly.

 

[owen35]

Also saw HG opening week. Probably day number 2. It only played 1 week roadshow and I believe it was at the Cinema1 in NYC . While everything you say about the work of the actors and behind the camera folks are spot on I totally disagree about the film as a whole. It was one of the most disappointing times I’ve had viewing film. HG was in short terrible. Scenes went on and on. It seemed as if they would never end. The whole sequence at Harvard(?) seemed like an amateur working with unlimited budget. Which imo actually was the case. Never saw the shortened version so I don’t know how it played. The whole movie reminded me of the Wedding scene in The Deer Hunter. It just went on and on. And to think that that picture won Best Picture of the year while Apocalypse Now didn’t . Over the years I’ve tried to really like this film renting the videos etc Would love to give it a proper second try but I’m sure it no longer exists in 70mm .

Point of clarification, The Deer Hunter and Apocalypse Now were not nominated in the same year. Apocalypse Now was nominated after The Deer Hunter and lost to Kramer vs Kramer (while not a bad movie, definitely not in the same league as AN).

As I posted earlier, out of boredom I cut my own version of the Heaven's Gate by completely removing the Harvard sequence. The film doesn't suffer at all from that omission. Cimino didn't have that scene in the original screenplay, it was tacked on once production got started, so I've never felt it was necessary to understand the characters or the message. (In my version the film is bookended with the scene on Jim's yacht; the majority of the film is basically a flashback, so when we return to the yacht, we fully understand why he is a soulless man in a emotionless marriage.)

 

[PaulRossen]

Point of clarification, The Deer Hunter and Apocalypse Now were not nominated in the same year. Apocalypse Now was nominated after The Deer Hunter and lost to Kramer vs Kramer (while not a bad movie, definitely not in the same league as AN).

As I posted earlier, out of boredom I cut my own version of the Heaven's Gate by completely removing the Harvard sequence. The film doesn't suffer at all from that omission. Cimino didn't have that scene in the original screenplay, it was tacked on once production got started, so I've never felt it was necessary to understand the characters or the message. (In my version the film is bookended with the scene on Jim's yacht; the majority of the film is basically a flashback, so when we return to the yacht, we fully understand why he is a soulless man in a emotionless marriage.)

I’m aware that HG and AN were not pitted against each other in the Academy Award races. Just that imo the superior film didn’t win its contest.
Your removal of the opening ‘Harvard’ scenes intrigues me as I never understood where they fit in except to pad the running time. Joseph Cotton’s speech went on and on for no good reason as did the outdoor dance sequence . I also never understood what Jeff Bridges(a brilliant actor) was doing in this picture.
I’m sure that your version of HG is far superior to what the makers came up with…

 

[Robin9]

Point of clarification, The Deer Hunter and Apocalypse Now were not nominated in the same year. Apocalypse Now was nominated after The Deer Hunter and lost to Kramer vs Kramer (while not a bad movie, definitely not in the same league as AN).

As I posted earlier, out of boredom I cut my own version of the Heaven's Gate by completely removing the Harvard sequence. The film doesn't suffer at all from that omission. Cimino didn't have that scene in the original screenplay, it was tacked on once production got started, so I've never felt it was necessary to understand the characters or the message. (In my version the film is bookended with the scene on Jim's yacht; the majority of the film is basically a flashback, so when we return to the yacht, we fully understand why he is a soulless man in a emotionless marriage.)

Thank you for that idea. I'm due for another viewing of this film and I'll try your version when I get around to it.