20th Anniversary of Se7en (1 Viewer)

[Walter Kittel]

Maybe I missed something, I realize what he does, but not why. Why the seven deadly sins? Why these particular persons (and not all others who also commit these sins)? Why finish by punishing himself, was he the only one envious enough to be punished? What was the point of his crusade, what did he hope to accomplish? And did he?

Well, first you start by reading all of John Doe's notebooks...

Somerset: "Placed on the shelves in no discernible order. His mind poured out on paper."

Okay, maybe not.


He is a psychopath, so I'm not sure that reasons really apply. I think the victims were chosen because they were particularly egregious examples of the seven deadly sins. If a morbidly obese man doesn't typify gluttony than who would? From a practical standpoint there may have been some opportunism at work in the choosing of victims. As far as why he punished himself I would argue two reasons. He was a sinner and was not above being punished and more importantly his punishment at the hand of Mills would complete the assignment of the sin of Wrath to David and put a bow on his 'mission' in a tidy fashion. He pretty much communicated his reasons to Mills - with notoriety, and public attention being his goals.


John Doe: "Wanting people to listen, you can't just tap them on the shoulder anymore. You have to hit them with a sledgehammer, and then you'll notice you've got their strict attention."


John Doe: "... But that's the point. We see a deadly sin on every street corner, in every home, and we tolerate it. We tolerate it because it's common, it's trivial. We tolerate it morning, noon, and night. Well, not anymore. I'm setting the example. What I've done is going to be puzzled over and studied and followed... forever."


With regards to whether or not he succeeded, I would argue the point made by Mills: "You're no messiah. You're a movie of the week. You're a f**king tee-shirt, at best."


- Walter.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Well, first you start by reading all of John Doe's notebooks...

Somerset: "Placed on the shelves in no discernible order. His mind poured out on paper."

Okay, maybe not.


He is a psychopath, so I'm not sure that reasons really apply. I think the victims were chosen because they were particularly egregious examples of the seven deadly sins. If a morbidly obese man doesn't typify gluttony than who would? From a practical standpoint there may have been some opportunism at work in the choosing of victims. As far as why he punished himself I would argue two reasons. He was a sinner and was not above being punished and more importantly his punishment at the hand of Mills would complete the assignment of the sin of Wrath to David and put a bow on his 'mission' in a tidy fashion. He pretty much communicated his reasons to Mills - with notoriety, and public attention being his goals.


John Doe: "Wanting people to listen, you can't just tap them on the shoulder anymore. You have to hit them with a sledgehammer, and then you'll notice you've got their strict attention."


John Doe: "... But that's the point. We see a deadly sin on every street corner, in every home, and we tolerate it. We tolerate it because it's common, it's trivial. We tolerate it morning, noon, and night. Well, not anymore. I'm setting the example. What I've done is going to be puzzled over and studied and followed... forever."


With regards to whether or not he succeeded, I would argue the point made by Mills: "You're no messiah. You're a movie of the week. You're a f**king tee-shirt, at best."


- Walter.

Good summary. As for the "succeeded" part, Doe went to his death happy - he succeeded in the way he wanted to succeed in terms of getting Mills to embody Wrath.


However, Doe failed in one way: his actions "woke up" Somerset, who'd felt defeated and had given up. Doe wanted to prove that the world didn't care about morality or anything good, but Somerset's revival proved him wrong. We don't know specifically what Somerset did after Mills' arrest, but it's implied that he once again became a good cop invested in his job - it's almost certain he didn't retire.


Until they make "Seven 2: More Sevener", we'll not know what the public fallout of Doe's actions became. I suspect he would've gone down as a legendary serial killer - despite Mills' protestations, there's no way he'd have been forgotten.


So I'm voting 67% Doe "succeeded"...

 

[Jacinto]

I've always wondered what John Doe's original plan was. John Doe started enacting his plan a full year before the movie begins by keeping Victor strapped to a bed against his will for the Sloth case. Since Victor was connected to Eli Gould, that means that the Greed case was already in the works that far back as well. There is just no way he would have put all of the research and planning into Sloth, Greed, Gluttony, Lust, and Pride, without having a concrete plan for Envy and Wrath in place.


Somerset says it himself: "This guy's methodical, exacting, and worst of all, patient."


John Doe would not have started the killings with a huge question mark looming over the end of his plan. So before he even knew that Mills existed, he must have had something else in mind for Envy and Wrath. What was it? On the phone with Mills after they came knocking on his door he admits that he has great admiration for them, and he alludes to the fact that he's had to make some changes due to their unexpected arrival at his apartment.

 

[Walter Kittel]

Good summary. As for the "succeeded" part, Doe went to his death happy - he succeeded in the way he wanted to succeed in terms of getting Mills to embody Wrath.

True. Very true. I would also agree that he would be remembered as a notorious serious killer; considering how many infamous killers have entered society's lexicon. The 'followed' comment was kind of where I thought his ambitions outstripped reality and he ultimately failed. So maybe 67% is correct.

I've always wondered what John Doe's original plan was. John Doe started enacting his plan a full year before the movie begins by keeping Victor strapped to a bed against his will for the Sloth case. Since Victor was connected to Eli Gould, that means that the Greed case was already in the works that far back as well. There is just no way he would have put all of the research and planning into Sloth, Greed, Gluttony, Lust, and Pride, without having a concrete plan for Envy and Wrath in place.

That is a really good point. I had forgotten how long his plan had been in effect with Victor and potentially the other victims (at least in terms of preparation.)


- Walter.

 

[Sean Bryan]

Doe set out to make a statement with 7 murders.

That's exactly what he did. The protagonists did not stop him. One became an instrument of his plan.

What people thought of Doe afterwards is beyond the scope of the movie and was also not something the protagonists had any control over in the scope of the film.

Doe succeeded in his horrific plan. Not one murder was stopped.

Mills mocking of Doe's aspirations doesn't really mean anything either way. Keep in mind that at the time Mills is mocking Doe as a crackpot, the head of Mills's wife is on its way to be delivered to him. And shorty thereafter he commits an execution that Doe wanted him to do.

Doe pulled off his plan perfectly. I think however the world reacted to this afterwards is beyond the scope of the film. And since the movie doesn't get into that, there's nothing really to discuss about whether if what he hoped people would think panned out.

 

[Sean Bryan]

Also, Doe was a deluded psychopath, but wasn't his motivation that the world was filled with sin and apathy toward it, and he was making this statement to call attention to that?

So wouldn't Summerset continuing on with being a good cop who is no longer apathetic actually be something that Doe would have wanted?

I mean, he didn't want people to sin and for others to be apathetic about it. Doesn't he want people to stop sinning and for people to give a shit when others do? Going by that I don't think Summerset staying on at the end should be viewed as any sort of "defeat" of Doe.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Also, Doe was a deluded psychopath, but wasn't his motivation that the world was filled with sin and apathy toward it, and he was making this statement to call attention to that?

So wouldn't Summerset continuing on with being a good cop who is no longer apathetic actually be something that Doe would have wanted?

I mean, he didn't want people to sin and for others to be apathetic about it. Doesn't he want people to stop sinning and for people to give a shit when others do? Going by that I don't think Summerset staying on at the end should be viewed as any sort of "defeat" of Doe.

That's a good point, but that assumes Doe really wanted the world to "shape up". I think of him more as a deluded psychotic who cared ore about his bizarre crusade than actually changing things.


I don't think Doe really cared about others or the condition of the world. I think he cared about his self-righteous quest and only paid lip-service to the alleged meaning of his actions.


Doe never would've been content. There's no way the world would've ever been sin-free enough for him...

 

[Mikael Soderholm]

Yeah, good summary, especially this: "He is a psychopath, so I'm not sure that reasons really apply. ", which means that as opposed to, say, Silence of the Lambs, where we gradually come to understand the sick and twisted reasons for the serial killer's actions, here they are not explained, which leaves the movie a well shot and nicely executed display of elaborate morbid murders, style over substance, which was my original criticism of this movie. Fincher, like Nolan, has this tendency in his movies, what initially seems like a well thought out and complex story turns out to be, in fact, a series of really nice shots, held together with pretty bare strings (like Inception).


Also, he plans over a year ahead, and takes care even to remove his fingerprints in order not to be discovered, only to turn himself in? He tries to shoot both cops when confronted near his apartment, but then decides not to when he actually has the chance? What if his first shots had hit, then his elaborate plan would be no more.

This is what I mean when I say I have problems with the script, but since the cinematography and the acting is so great, i still enjoy the movie.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Yeah, good summary, especially this: "He is a psychopath, so I'm not sure that reasons really apply. ", which means that as opposed to, say, Silence of the Lambs, where we gradually come to understand the sick and twisted reasons for the serial killer's actions, here they are not explained, which leaves the movie a well shot and nicely executed display of elaborate morbid murders, style over substance, which was my original criticism of this movie. Fincher, like Nolan, has this tendency in his movies, what initially seems like a well thought out and complex story turns out to be, in fact, a series of really nice shots, held together with pretty bare strings (like Inception).


Also, he plans over a year ahead, and takes care even to remove his fingerprints in order not to be discovered, only to turn himself in? He tries to shoot both cops when confronted near his apartment, but then decides not to when he actually has the chance? What if his first shots had hit, then his elaborate plan would be no more.

This is what I mean when I say I have problems with the script, but since the cinematography and the acting is so great, i still enjoy the movie.

Possibility: Doe did have an incredibly elaborate plan, but he had to alter it when Mills/Somerset started to get close to him. As smart and diligent as he was, he may've panicked a few times and he had to improvise.


Perhaps he had a different plan for "Wrath" and he changed it when he found out about Mills. He clearly turned himself in to further what ended up being the "Wrath" plan - he needed to be arrested to get Mills to the spot where Doe's end game would occur.


You might be right: these might be plot holes and I might be giving the filmmakers more credit than they deserve. Just spit-balling some ideas!

 

[Mikael Soderholm]

Gotta love that joke about Marquis de Sade that Mills don't know how to pronounce though:
David Mills: Okay. The Marquis de-Shaday …
William Somerset: It's the Marquis de Sade.