I can’t disagree with you more so I’m just going to agree to disagree and move on. I no longer have the energy to continue discussions that won’t be resolved here. The new rules will be in place next season and we will all see the results of them.
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2022 MLB Season (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Robert Crawford
- Start date
Honestly don't see how anyone can disagree that the game is slower/longer because of a bunch of different changes in how it's played, not just because of this pitcher taking extra time thing.
I get people can reasonably disagree whether the pitch clock rule(s) would actually help in a net positive way, but the rest? All those other issues I brought up aren't somehow new and exclusively mine, LOL.
Anyway, we'll just have to see how this new rule(s) pans out next year. I'm not saying it can't possibly be good for the game. I'm just not convinced that's the best approach at this point is all. Meanwhile, there are a host of other issues related to the game taking longer...
Anyhoo...
_Man_
I get people can reasonably disagree whether the pitch clock rule(s) would actually help in a net positive way, but the rest? All those other issues I brought up aren't somehow new and exclusively mine, LOL.
Anyway, we'll just have to see how this new rule(s) pans out next year. I'm not saying it can't possibly be good for the game. I'm just not convinced that's the best approach at this point is all. Meanwhile, there are a host of other issues related to the game taking longer...
Anyhoo...
_Man_
I can easily disagree with some of your points as there is no such thing as a loogy any longer due to rule change.
That only began last year, but they also expanded the active roster this year, especially so for 1st couple months. And that's just 1 of the many symptomatic parts of that, not at all the biggest or only one.
They are still finding ways/reasons to involve tons of pitching changes that never happened in the old days. That's the actual point.
_Man_
My last word to you on this issue is the rule change regarding the minimum of batters a pitcher must face didn’t begin this season.
Yes, I stand corrected on that detail. But that doesn't change the fact there are still tons of pitching changes (and the expanded active roster counteracts that new rule at least to some extent in terms of number of pitching changes)... and indeed, plenty of appearances still involve fewer than a full inning's work despite that new rule.
_Man_
Man,
Last season with the 25 man rosters, several teams including the Yankees carried more than 13 pitchers during different periods of the season. This season with the 26 man rosters, a team can't carry more than 13 pitchers per the negotiated CBA that took effect in 2022.
Every season I watch a ton of minor league games on my iPad and computer because I subscribed to the MiLB TV package so I can follow Yankee prospects playing in AAA, AA and High A ball. Therefore, I noticed those minor league games being shorter in length than what it was back before the pandemic.
I don't remember the exact details now, but IIRC, the available pitchers were expanded from that for the 1st couple months of this year to accommodate the easing of pitcher workloads due to the shortened spring training. And of course, Sept expands active rosters again... though not nearly to the extent it used to be, which used to be pretty ridiculous.
Still, having 1 extra slot on the active roster allows teams to more fully carry the max limit of 13 pitchers. I'm not sure what the numbers were before this year, but I recall there was talk that many/most teams weren't really carrying the max limit of 13 pitchers all the time and needed more than just 12 slots for position players (and the DH)... and probably especially so now that the NL has the DH.
And of course, there's also the use of the DL/IL and frequent minor league options/callups (of both pitchers and position players) that essentially allow teams to effectively (plan to) use more than just 13 pitchers throughout much of the season (before Sept). Yes, they've been trying to crack down on some of that (not just for this specific issue w/ pitcher utiltizing), but it's probably still far more than it used to be and "helps" enable teams to make tons of in-game pitching changes.
In any event, we're not likely ever going back to the old days of very few pitching changes unless some other much more drastic changes occur I guess. And that certainly plays very substantially into slowing down the game from those old days...
_Man_
Some people don't give up, but I do. Moving on! 
Com'on, Crawdaddy. This doesn't have to be some pissing contest or the like, no? I'm not disagreeing (on whichever points) or discussing stuff at length just to try to win some argument or show anyone else up or anything like that -- that's not my general rationale/motivation for such discussions... though sure, I must admit I do sometimes get a little bit that way w/out realizing (due to certain very human instincts/impulses I suppose)...
Presumably, we all want good, realistic improvements to the game where needed and viable w/out compromising it too much. And we can certainly love shooting the breeze about this game we so love, no? But I do apologize if I'm needlessly spoiling the enjoyment of such for you or anyone else who genuinely loves the game...
Anyhoo...
_Man_
PS: Admittedly, I do also have the habit/tendency to "think out loud" in my forum commentary... and for better or worse, that shows I think...
Presumably, we all want good, realistic improvements to the game where needed and viable w/out compromising it too much. And we can certainly love shooting the breeze about this game we so love, no? But I do apologize if I'm needlessly spoiling the enjoyment of such for you or anyone else who genuinely loves the game...
Anyhoo...
_Man_
PS: Admittedly, I do also have the habit/tendency to "think out loud" in my forum commentary... and for better or worse, that shows I think...
If we were in person, I would continue to engage you on this matter. However, I'm not the fastest typist especially on my iPhone so I try to avoid several exchanges of dialogue in such discussions.
Just want to say I definitely do appreciate this sentiment (enough to post it, not just "react" as usual)... especially since you already are very busy w/ multiple/many, very involved hats/engagements on HTF, so probably can't spare as much time/focus on something like this as I can/would...
_Man_
You're lucky I'm an old man now, otherwise, this discussion would continue on, in person or not.Just want to say I definitely do appreciate this sentiment (enough to post it, not just "react" as usual)... especially since you already are very busy w/ multiple/many, very involved hats/engagements on HTF, so probably can't spare as much time/focus on something like this as I can/would...
_Man_
David Weicker
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I disagree with any rule change that gives free somethings to a team that affect the score.
If a pitch-clock violation gives a free ball (or free strike), that affects the score and outcome of the game
If not allowing throw-overs creates a situation where the runner can steal without opposition, that affects the score and the outcome.
I hate, hate, hate the man-on-second rule. It's a piece of shit rule.
People seem so concerned spending too much time being entertained. Why not just install a game clock. Game is automatically over at 3hours, now they can change the channel on schedule.
If a pitch-clock violation gives a free ball (or free strike), that affects the score and outcome of the game
If not allowing throw-overs creates a situation where the runner can steal without opposition, that affects the score and the outcome.
I hate, hate, hate the man-on-second rule. It's a piece of shit rule.
People seem so concerned spending too much time being entertained. Why not just install a game clock. Game is automatically over at 3hours, now they can change the channel on schedule.
Last edited:
Malcolm R
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And I haven't heard anyone in the minors squawking about it. If anything, most seem to find it refreshing that the game moves along faster. And it must be working pretty well, or they wouldn't be bringing it to the majors. You can also tell with pitchers coming up from the minors, as they naturally work faster as they're used to the clock even if it doesn't yet exist in the majors. The veterans will just have to tamp down their egos.
The easy way to avoid pitch clock penalties is to not violate the rule. I'll be interested in how strict the umpires are with enforcement.
You definitely make some good/interesting points there... though might be a tad extreme/hyperbolic in sentiment, LOL. But I gotta love/respect the passion/love (for the game) behind that though...
That may well be true about (some) veterans and their egos. But I don't know that (especially young, impressionable) players' reaction is a particularly good gauge for whether a rule change is actually good/best for the game. Many of them aren't exactly the most cerebral, generally aware, etc sort afterall.
I mean... you don't generally just rely on the subjects' own opinions to determine the conclusions for whatever scientific experiments for obviously good (intelligent, scientific) reasons afterall -- you might include them as a variable/factor to consider, but certainly, not usually the most important, overriding one...
THIS latter thing about consistent/strict enforcement (or not) is another thing about all this as seems par for the course whenever issues w/ (especially new) rules (or rules clarifications, recommitment, etc) are concerned...
In light of David's impassioned point above, maybe they should consider trying something like the electric shock experiment on rats back in the 60's(?) -- just kidding about actually using electric shock or the like, of course, LOL,
but maybe something else that don't impact the game in the way(s) David objected...Hmmm... since we now have replay reviews w/ the limits they placed, maybe a good penalty would involve reducing the offending pitcher's team's capacity to use replay reviews somehow or something along those lines, especially since both involves significantly slowing down the game particularly if done extensively -- might need to start w/ a warning first plus maybe at least 1 extra allowance for (failed) review though... That's just me spitballing of course... as I'm not even that thrilled about having a pitch clock at all...
_Man_
Malcolm R
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There should be a really loud buzzer that goes off when the pitch clock expires (like the NBA's shot clock). Then there wouldn't be any question.
I don't think any team would use replay review on a pitch clock violation, unless it really was obvious and would result in walking in the winning run. Teams only get one replay review per game. It's one-and-done if your replay challenge is unsuccessful.
I don't think any team would use replay review on a pitch clock violation, unless it really was obvious and would result in walking in the winning run. Teams only get one replay review per game. It's one-and-done if your replay challenge is unsuccessful.
They definitely should do something like that if they're gonna bother, LOL... although maybe something a bit more embarrassing might be good (and fun, LOL)... Afterall, they're trying to make the game more entertaining and engaging, so why not?
In the old days (w/ all the macho male egos), maybe they could've even considered a penalty that involves embarrassing the opposing team's mascot or the like, which hits the team's pride, LOL... but that was in the old days though...
That's why I also suggested "a warning first plus maybe at least 1 extra allowance for (failed) review". But as I also said, I'm just spitballing w/ this...
_Man_
David Norman
Senior HTF Member
Various comments
The man on 2nd extra innings rule I agree is mostly a travesty and tragedy. I understood it a little for the 1st year (not really 2021), not at all for this year and it should be history soon enough anyway. I guess I could support a 13th inning version like Robert suggested if I had to though it would be kicking and screaming -- the number of 13+ inning games in the last 2-3 full seasons were so tiny as it would be nearly meaningless anyway.
I don't agree the buzzer for the pitch clock if it's audible in the field with since it would be beyond irritating to fans and players alike to hear it 20+ times a game and I'm not entirely sure how you would synch it up anyway to eliminate all the false alarms though some sort of light system red/yellow/green might be useful depending on where they're positioned . Maybe audible to the umps and in the dugout, but most certainly not for the fans to endure. I'm not sure a 1 warning per pitcher (even per inning) might not be a terrible idea esp the 1st year. The pitch clock hasn't been that hard to call in the minors so surely it will similarly easy in the majors. I don't think most umps are trying to call split second late anyway esp with runners on base -- the pitcher just has to be in his windup.
The pitcher and batter are both directed to be ready to play
How it will be enforced: If a pitcher has not started "the motion to deliver a pitch" before the expiration of the clock, he will be charged with a ball. If a batter delays entering the box, he will be charged with a strike.
I really don't like limiting the pickoff rule restrictions, but if they're going to do that at least change or clarify some of the balk rules as well and get rid of the Bob Davidson phantom balk or that 3 balk/one batter nonsense this week (watched that again and I can't even see a violation once while explicitly looking for it).
The idea in my mind is not to shorten the games directly, but get rid of the dead time. A shorter game is the result, not the target. A 3 or 4 hr game can be a perfectly fine thing, but not if 80% of it is waiting around for pitchers to paw around the mound, stare at the clouds, go through their 64 step meditation routine and batters to go through their superstition rituals -- no reason on every pitch to step out of the box, remove/replace your helmet, readjust the jewelry inside the uniform, unstrap and restrap the elbow guard, undo and tighten each batting glove (Ronald Acuna I stare in your general direction), check the 3rd base coach and manager with the bases empty for 20 seconds. 30-45 seconds between every pitch in the 2nd inning with the bases empty is just maddening. Mike Hargrove and Nomar Garciaparra were irritation and amusing in their day, but now 50% of the batters do it. There are entire half innings played faster than some single 6-8 pitch AB's with certain pitchers.
I'm not a huge fan of changing the base sizes (other than 1B), but I would have strongly preferred them just to change to a softball type 'Double" 1B Bag with an equal sized bag in foul ground only for the runner use. I'd love simultaneously for umps to start enforcing the runners lane. If the runners left foot is inside the foul line after teh 45 foot marker, he's out regardless of whether the ball hits him or he affects the throw. I've seen 3 plays in the last couple weeks where the 2/3 of the way to First the runner was actually on the infield grass and even his entire right foot was over a 1 foot inside the line and nowhere close to the bag, but none of them were called out. Twice it caused an error when the throw hit the runner - the retire player analysts in the booth/studio were incensed though admittedly one was a catcher and the other was ex 1Bman (Cliff Floyd) who had his arm destroyed by that type play . I'm tired of seeing career threatening injuries or near misses b/c there's just not enough room for runner, firstbaseman and ball in that same 6 inches. They changed the second base takeout play and just about eliminated the blocking home plate rule, now it's time for an easy fix that can solve multiple issues at once.
I would love to see a speed up of the dead time on replays -- it's been some better this last couple seasons but still too many times where it take 2-5 minutes to get a decision. The entire idea was to get rid of the obvious egregious mistakes and not necessarily to nitpick 0.001 second or 0.1mm decisions with a special hatred for the "foot bounced over home plate by 2mm even though he obviously beat the throw" calls. If the call can't be overturned in under 20-30 seconds (clear and obvious) then the call should stand. Boundary calls -- was it over the fence or not , was it inside the foul pole, fan interference calls get a bit different treatment. Get rid of the Denkinger type World series call where it was 3-4 feet difference, the Giolito perfect game that wasn't mistake or a player obviously dropped the ball but blocked the ump from being able to see it -- stop worrying about the razor thin minutiae that can only be seen on high speed step by step stop motion cameras and takes 20 viewings by multiple people to make
The man on 2nd extra innings rule I agree is mostly a travesty and tragedy. I understood it a little for the 1st year (not really 2021), not at all for this year and it should be history soon enough anyway. I guess I could support a 13th inning version like Robert suggested if I had to though it would be kicking and screaming -- the number of 13+ inning games in the last 2-3 full seasons were so tiny as it would be nearly meaningless anyway.
I don't agree the buzzer for the pitch clock if it's audible in the field with since it would be beyond irritating to fans and players alike to hear it 20+ times a game and I'm not entirely sure how you would synch it up anyway to eliminate all the false alarms though some sort of light system red/yellow/green might be useful depending on where they're positioned . Maybe audible to the umps and in the dugout, but most certainly not for the fans to endure. I'm not sure a 1 warning per pitcher (even per inning) might not be a terrible idea esp the 1st year. The pitch clock hasn't been that hard to call in the minors so surely it will similarly easy in the majors. I don't think most umps are trying to call split second late anyway esp with runners on base -- the pitcher just has to be in his windup.
The pitcher and batter are both directed to be ready to play
How it will be enforced: If a pitcher has not started "the motion to deliver a pitch" before the expiration of the clock, he will be charged with a ball. If a batter delays entering the box, he will be charged with a strike.
I really don't like limiting the pickoff rule restrictions, but if they're going to do that at least change or clarify some of the balk rules as well and get rid of the Bob Davidson phantom balk or that 3 balk/one batter nonsense this week (watched that again and I can't even see a violation once while explicitly looking for it).
The idea in my mind is not to shorten the games directly, but get rid of the dead time. A shorter game is the result, not the target. A 3 or 4 hr game can be a perfectly fine thing, but not if 80% of it is waiting around for pitchers to paw around the mound, stare at the clouds, go through their 64 step meditation routine and batters to go through their superstition rituals -- no reason on every pitch to step out of the box, remove/replace your helmet, readjust the jewelry inside the uniform, unstrap and restrap the elbow guard, undo and tighten each batting glove (Ronald Acuna I stare in your general direction), check the 3rd base coach and manager with the bases empty for 20 seconds. 30-45 seconds between every pitch in the 2nd inning with the bases empty is just maddening. Mike Hargrove and Nomar Garciaparra were irritation and amusing in their day, but now 50% of the batters do it. There are entire half innings played faster than some single 6-8 pitch AB's with certain pitchers.
I'm not a huge fan of changing the base sizes (other than 1B), but I would have strongly preferred them just to change to a softball type 'Double" 1B Bag with an equal sized bag in foul ground only for the runner use. I'd love simultaneously for umps to start enforcing the runners lane. If the runners left foot is inside the foul line after teh 45 foot marker, he's out regardless of whether the ball hits him or he affects the throw. I've seen 3 plays in the last couple weeks where the 2/3 of the way to First the runner was actually on the infield grass and even his entire right foot was over a 1 foot inside the line and nowhere close to the bag, but none of them were called out. Twice it caused an error when the throw hit the runner - the retire player analysts in the booth/studio were incensed though admittedly one was a catcher and the other was ex 1Bman (Cliff Floyd) who had his arm destroyed by that type play . I'm tired of seeing career threatening injuries or near misses b/c there's just not enough room for runner, firstbaseman and ball in that same 6 inches. They changed the second base takeout play and just about eliminated the blocking home plate rule, now it's time for an easy fix that can solve multiple issues at once.
I would love to see a speed up of the dead time on replays -- it's been some better this last couple seasons but still too many times where it take 2-5 minutes to get a decision. The entire idea was to get rid of the obvious egregious mistakes and not necessarily to nitpick 0.001 second or 0.1mm decisions with a special hatred for the "foot bounced over home plate by 2mm even though he obviously beat the throw" calls. If the call can't be overturned in under 20-30 seconds (clear and obvious) then the call should stand. Boundary calls -- was it over the fence or not , was it inside the foul pole, fan interference calls get a bit different treatment. Get rid of the Denkinger type World series call where it was 3-4 feet difference, the Giolito perfect game that wasn't mistake or a player obviously dropped the ball but blocked the ump from being able to see it -- stop worrying about the razor thin minutiae that can only be seen on high speed step by step stop motion cameras and takes 20 viewings by multiple people to make
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