Will current Surround Sound receivers be able to decode the new HD sound formats? (1 Viewer)

[DaViD Boulet]

Ok Ken,

so combining what you say in this and another thread...if I understand you correctly:

1. A DTS bitstream is mandatory on all HD DVD or Blu-ray discs (similar to the way PCM or DD is mandatory on DVD).
2. First-gen Blu-ray and HD DVD players already have the chips necessary to decode lossless DTS and downconvert to "regular" DTS for output via coax to legacy audio receivers (which ought to sound as good or better than DTS on DVD since it's higher bit-rate...more like D-VHS). This means that disc producers only need to provide a single "best quality" DTS audio track on the disc which would be able to be listened to in some form even by those without decoders able to handle compressed lossless DTS.
3. Some first-gen players will also take lossless DTS and convert to multi-channel PCM to output via HDMI which some current receivers will be able to handle (if they can't handle the DTS lossless bitstream directly but are HDMI enabled).
4. What no first-gen players by either camp can do is downconvert lossless DD to "regular DD" because the specs and chips aren't all worked out...but that capability ought to appear on 2nds or 3rd generation players.

Tell me if that all checks ok!

 

[Ken_F]

1. Double-checking on this...

2. Yes, all players have the ability to output the DTS component of DTS-HD encoded disks.

3. Yes.

4. Yes.

 

[Glenn Overholt]

I don't know about No. 1. It would be nice, but I can see 50 gig disks filling up, and thus preventing a lossless DTS track too. Besides, I see see GL screaming bloody murder as well.

As for the analog outs, I elected not to use mine right now because there are a few movies out which do provide rear channel sound - even if it is only in mono. It is still there, and it kicks!

So, if I got an HD player and used the analog outs, my two rear speakers would effectively be dead. I know that some here have rears set up in built-in theater systems, and are waiting for more disks to show up taking advantage of the rear sound.

At this rate, if I wanted to continue to use my rears, I'd be better off using digital/coax out. The sound quality would go down, but I'm not about to retire my rears.

I thought that 7.1 analog would be required on these - ok, at least the better models. I hear that sucking sound again.

Glenn

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I don't think that "lossless" DTS is a requirement...just DTS in some form or another (just like DD or PCM is required on DVD to ensure that all players will be able to produce sound from any given movie).

 

[Stan Rozenfeld]

Ken,

I don't underestand why sending audio via analog out is inherently inferior. Granted that hdmi is a more elegant solution, that it allows you to use receiver's post processing, and that the use of cables leaves them open to some sort of electrical interference, (so I guess in this sense it is an inferior option , but having said that, I don't see why, in principle sound would be inferior. I am talking about receivers that have multichannel inputs that totally bypass receiver processing and addition a/d and d/a converson.

When you mention degradation from volume and tone control circuits, and from d/a conversion, same issues exist if you use any digital inputs of the receiver. Assuming that the players don't actively downgrade the signal on analog out, wouldn't it be a question of which of the components got the better processing and d/a conversion circuitry? And whether it's essential for you to use receiver's post processing modes?

Sorry if I am dense on this, but if you ask most audiophiles, they prefer to use the cd player's analog outputs because usually their cd player has better d/a conversion, etc. I know in my case, the analog connection between my receiver and player sounds much better for cds than does the digital connection. Ironically, the reverse is true of dvd playback! Go figure.

Another question that pops into my mind has to do with the hdmi connection on today's receivers. Let's say you conect your high def player to today's receiver via hdmi... does the receiver 'know' what to do with 2, 6 or 8 channels of pcm? I mean, has anyone tried sending 6 channels of pcm via hdmi? Who will control the bass management, player or receiver? Will receiver be able to apply post processing modes to such signals? We're assuming that they can, but has anyone actually tried or queried one of the companies that make such receivers?

I think it's definitely safer to wait for another year if possible until we actually see what's happening when you send audio pcm tracks over hdmi.

Stan

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Agreed much of this is uncharted territory in so far as reciever behavior is concerned. I wouldn't be rushing out to upgrade my receiver until, as you say, new surround formats and HDMI issues have had a year or so to come to market.

 

[Michael Osadciw]

David

I agree with you. I've been purposely holding off on purchasing any new pre-amp/processor for many of these reasons. Not only is there very little difference in sound between many of them on the market (many - not all!) because these pieces are computers using relatively the same parts, but since these are "digital components" they outdate themselves very quickly and become junk after. Many parts get better and better all of the time and of course, why would I want to spend thousands on "lossy" audio?

At this time I find using my Denon DVD-3910 as a surround processor with D/A conversion and passed through 6-channel analogue on a receiver to be much more satisfying than some expensive processors. The weak point here, still, is the receiver. No matter what anyone says, I still haven't found a receiver that doesn't sound "hollow" and lacking punch [even as a pre-amp (a VERY important piece)].

Mike

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I actually tried a high-end Denon reciever (used to work at Tweeter and always felt it was the best sounding "recevier") but that "hollow" sound you mention was there and bothered me...and I ended up swapping and paying more for the B&K integrated amp that I have now (which I had sent to the factory last summer and full-upgraded the decoder to Dolby ProLogic II and EX/ES 6.1 decoding with new 24/96 dacs).

Basically the B&K reps told me that if I used the pre-amp outs of the receiver it was like having a Reference 30 processor with built-in amps for free (I use an NAD amp for my front L/R mains right now, and the built-in amps for C and Rear).



Who know...maybe when the HDMI dust settles I can send it back and have it upgraded yet-again...

 

[Michael Osadciw]

David

You find the NAD amps to be better sounding than the B&K integrated?? That kinda surprises me. If the NAD is the current 2-channel model, I found the sound to be rather lacking in comparison to say...the Anthem PVA series amps. I'm not a fan of the PVAs either because they sound rather lifeless (at least in combination with the Anthem AVM20 through Studio Series speakers...it may be different with a stereo preamp). So I would figure the B&K would be better sounding...but I'd have to listen to find out.

The older NAD stuff was great. I loved selling it and I miss it very much. The new product is good but not quite what it used to be. For the price, it was great stuff and still is. I'd take it over a receiver amp anyday.

Mike

 

[Stan Rozenfeld]

Michael,

Do you use your Denon 3910 analog out for movies as well as music?

I tested it in my system connecting it to my old Marantz SR-18 receiver via coax digital and via analog connection. I found that for movies, digital connection was best, but for cds, analog connection was much better. I don't know why that is, but that's what I found... at least in my room on my system.

I guess, this is not part of this thread or even this section of the forum, but it's a good topic for discussion: with all the digital connection proliferating (firewire, hdmi, spdif), will it be desirable to ever get rid of the analog connection? I mean, can a receiver, no matter how great, because it has to do so many functions, ever match a well built dedicated player for processing and d/a conversion? I know most audiophiles will say no!

Getting back to the topic at hand, I also wonder whether it will be feasable or even desirable to apply the post processing modes that have been developed to the new codecs? For me, I found the thx mode on my receiver indispensible for movies. I wonder if it will still be so with lossless.

Stan

 

[PeterTHX]

DTS itself on disk is OPTIONAL. DTS support in players is the thing that is mandatory, with DTS+HD being optional. NOT the software. The software can have PCM, DD, or DTS in either compressed or lossless form.

So checking:

All Blu-ray and HD DVD players will have DTS lossy support, they may have DTS+HD support.
All Blu-ray and HD DVD discs may or may not have a DTS stream, the program providers decide.

The situation is the same with Dolby Digital and Dolby TrueHD.

 

[Ryan Peddle]

I agree and disagree. I find the pic quality using my Samsung upconverting player to my Toshiba 51H84 to 1080i to be quite fantastic. Most picture deficiencies I find come from the manufacturer. Sound is where I am always looking for improvement.

But, I do agree that picture is the next major advancement in, in home movie watching. My only concern is that manufactures will screw up the HD audio while trying to get the picture quality right.

I am too, holding off to purchase a new prepro/amp or receiver due to this. I have other things my money has to go towards in the first place, but a new receiver is the next thing I need to upgrade. My BIG, and I really mean big, is that to get what you need to achieve both HD audio AND video...it's gonna cost a fortune.

 

[Ryan Peddle]

Also, reading the article, it looks as if all HD audio will be automatically 7.1, which is great...but will all new receivers have the proper outputs for 7.1 or will it be matrixed?

 

[Stan Rozenfeld]

Here is another interesting thing. We've been told by Dolby and others that current crop of hdmi receivers will be able to handle incoming pcm tracks from high def players which will do the decoding. I think it's worth digging around in literature of your receiver to find out how many tracks and at what level it can handle.

For instance, I was looking at Sony's str-da7100es receiver which has hdmi switching. The receiver will accept uncompressed pcm, BUT it is limited to 6 channels (not 8) and at 48khz/24 bit, not 96/24, so once again, it seems that it's safest to wait till at least after hd dvd and blu-ray are released.

But if you really want to buy a receiver now, (and I really want to , it's worth contacting the technical department or whatever and find out 1) whether receiver's hdmi can pass 1080p and 2) how many channels of pcm and at what level can the receiver handle.

I am hoping that Sony will release a new receiver that will be fully compatible with blu-ray, soon after the introduction of bdp-s1.

 

[Roger_R]

Has there been any news on what Denon will do? Their denon link system was the only one that was allowed to transfer SACD and DVD-A digitally from DVD-player to amplifier without any downconverting.
It would be nice to know whether or not their current amps with denon link can be upgraded to support whatever HD-DVD and Blu-ray will use and also if their HD-DVD/Blu-ray players will support unconverted digital audio over the denon link.

 

[Ken_F]

DTCP over Firewire is one of the AACS-authorized connectivity solutions, but the Denons still can't be upgraded to support decoding of the new lossless codecs. These new codecs require far more computational power than the legacy DTS and Dolby codecs we've had for the past ten years.

For decoding of the new lossless codecs like DTS-HD and Dolby TruHD, you are going to need either a player with this decoding built-in (plus a receiver with HDMI 1.1 or multichannel analog inputs), or a next-generation receiver coming next year. Right now is not the best time to buy a new receiver, given the next-year will see the most significant changes to home theater audio in more than a decade. We haven't seen such improvements in sound since the debut of Dolby Digital so many years ago.

Of course, every player and high-def disk will offer backward-compatible, legacy DTS or Dolby Digital 5.1 sound for those with older receivers.