Two channel audio thread, because music matters (1 Viewer)

[Craig Chase]

Greetings - Now that things are getting back to normal on the home front, I am starting a thread on something I always wanted to do: explore two channel audio while keeping the cost relatively affordable.

This will be an on going thread, with some surprises in regards to speakers and amplifiers. We are attempting to source as much as possible for speakers/amps from the USA and Canada. A couple of manufacturers have already agreed to participate, and feelers have been put out to additional companies.

Let's see where this thread takes us.

 

[Craig Chase]

The first component for this thread has arrived: The OPPO 203D Universal player. After extensive talks with the authorized dealer - who has available many more expensive products - we picked the OPPO because it has, in the opinion of this dealer, two channel audio that is as "good as it gets" for under $1000. It plays CD, DVD-A and SACD. The fact that it can double as a DVD player is a plus.

It is available direct from OPPO or from several retailers for about $500.

Hopefully, over the next week, a decision will be made for an integrated amp. I am looking at Rogue, Odyssey, Peachtree, Vincent, Pro-Ject, Rega and possibly Jolida. Suggestions are welcome.

 

[Technosponge]

Mytek Digital Brooklyn DAC+ / Brooklyn AMP.

 

[Craig Chase]

Technosponge ... Several high end dealers are already liking the concept of this thread. One is a Mytek dealer. He is thinking the Brooklyn DAC/Pre amp and a good tube amp. The interesting part is he has the Brooklyn amp in stock, but swears the combo of Brooklyn's DAC/Pre with the Tube amp (he suggested several) is pure magic.

Good call !! Thank you!

 

[Technosponge]

I’ve put the Mytek Brooklyn pairing at the top of a very short list. My dilemma is not being able to audition them. I’ve got a feeling paired with Revel Concerta2 M16s I may be sold.

 

[JohnRice]

My two channel system is from a slightly different angle than what you guys are heading towards, but I challenge anyone to beat in in the "bang for the buck" area. I've had my Thiel CS 3.6s since they came out, so, over 25 years. I'll probably die with them, if I can. So, the rest of the playback system is the Emotiva DC-1 DAC, Emotiva XSP-1 pre-amp, Oppo 103 to play back HD files, and an Emotiva XPA-2 amp. At $500 each for the Oppo and DC-1, $800 for the XSP-1 and $650 for the XPA-2 (when I bought them) I'd hold it up against anything, for the price.

 

[Craig Chase]

John Rice ... The Oppo 203D is $500. The rest of the Emotiva gear is more money today, but still a good value. The only floorstanders from Thiel today are $7000 per pair. If you want to talk value, my Koss 1020's will stack up quite nicely against the Thiels (yes, I have heard them both) and they were $600 new in 1978.

The point is, your system, if purchased new today, would be well in excess of $10,000. I doubt the two channel system here will be that much money.

Emotiva is a new addition to the short list for components, though.

 

[JohnRice]

The only floorstanders from Thiel today are $7000 per pair.

Emotiva is a new addition to the short list for components, though.

The abomination that today has the "Thiel" name on it is, well, an abomination. The company died with Jim Thiel in 2009. And since the goal seems to be nitpicking, the Oppo 203 is $549. Koss speakers from 40 years ago that "stack up quite nicely" against the CS3.6? Yeah, right. I admit, I was somewhat fortunate that they happened to come out when I was looking for new speakers, and I ventured into one of the few stores that sold them, but they are still regularly rated as one of the greatest speakers ever made, and especially one of the greatest values. I'm not going to apologize that I was fortunate enough to stumble across them. The DC-1 is still $500, the XSP-1, unfortunately has jumped to $1.2K and the current XPA-2 is $1K, but plenty of the previous ones are available used. You can easily get CS3.6s for $1.5K or less used, or look at Vandersteen.

Sorry I wandered into your pissing contest. I'll move on.

But as I walk away, I'll mumble under my breath that the DC-1 is an especially great value.

 

[Craig Chase]

Schiit Audio has been added to the list of American made companies. After further reviewing Emotiva's site, any products that would be involved in this thread are sourced in China, so they are out.

 

[Craig Chase]

The next three posts will be a review from 2015. The speakers reviewed were a pair of Martin Logan ESL Hybrid Loudspeakers @ $3000 per pair. The Martin Logans will be the reference speaker for this thread. We will be adding at least one other pair of speakers soon, a relatively new company whose founder and chief designer has about 22 years working as a designer for a high end company under his belt. His speakers are also about $3000 per pair.

 

[Craig Chase]

Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL Hybrid Loudspeaker (ESL)

Manufacturer's pricing and specifications:

MSRP: $3000 per pair

System Frequency Response: 42–22,000 Hz ± 3db

Dispersion: Horizontal: 30 Degrees

Vertical: 34” (86.4 cm) line source

High-Frequency Driver: XStat™ CLS™ electrostatic transducer

Panel dimensions: 34” x 8.6”(86.4 x 21.8cm)

Radiating area: 292 in2 (1884 cm2)

Sensitivity: 91 dB/2.83 volts/meter

Impedance: 6 ohms (1.6 ohms @ 20 kHz min.). Compatible with 4, 6, or 8 ohm rated amplifiers.

Crossover Frequency: 500 Hz

Woofer Type: 8” (20.3 cm) high excursion, high-rigidity paper cone with extended throw driver assembly, non-resonance
asymmetrical chamber format, bass reflex cabinet

Recommended Amplifier Power: 20–300 watts per channel

Weight: 35.5 lbs. each (16.1 kg)

Size: 52.1” h x 9” w x 16.3” d (132.3 cm h x 22.9 cm w x 41.4 d cm)


Unpacking:

The ESLs are packaged as well as one would expect from a high end speaker. Built to protect the somewhat fragile nature of a speaker with a long, thin panel, the cardboard "spine" around the ESL panel is excellent, and the speakers survived the best UPS could throw at them without Any damage.

All one needs to do is stand the box upright (the box does tell one which is "up"), and slide the whole assembly out. At 35 pounds, this is a simple task. What is left is to take off all the packing materials and carry the speakers to their listening position.

The primary difference in hooking up the ESL's to other speakers is one must plug a small "wall wart" style plug into each speaker, and into a wall outlet. The "high frequency panel" ... or what is normally considered to be the tweeter, requires an electric charge to operate - as one would expect with this design.

Overall, the excellent packaging materials and ease of set up warrant a grade of "A".

The System and the Room:

The listening room is 44x14.5x7.5 feet with concrete walls, floor and acoustic tile ceiling. The associated equipment is a Marantz UD-5007 Universal player, a Marantz 7008 receiver and for some of the listening tests, an Axiom ADA-1000-5 power amplifier.

All listening was done with no Audyssey room correction applied, and no subwoofer in the system. The Marantz 7008 was operated in 2 channel mode for all listening. The speakers were placed appx. 4 feet from the back walls and 2 feet from the side walls.

(See next post for listening impressions)

 

[Craig Chase]

Listening Tests and Observations:

Roger Waters "In The Flesh" SACD

This SACD has been a favorite test disc of mine for 11 years now. It's not the best sounding disc, but there is so much going on with it that I have found it a valuable tool for evaluating speakers. There are many tracks with background voices in them (particularly "The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking" and "Amused to Death"), and this is one of many of those tools. Compared to other speakers I have had here, the ML's are about average in terms of delineating these background voices. Average does not mean bad in this sense - it means that there were speakers which were more clear than the ML's, and others were less clear.

Macro Dynamics are less than average on the ML's with this disc set - "Money" and "Another Brick in the Wall" do not come across with a lot of impact, and these are two songs that are meant to rock, not soothe.

On the up side, Micro Dynamics are average overall - the bells in "Time" are clear and never harsh.

Sound staging is deep - during "Perfect Sense", the voice of "Hal" from "2001: Space Oddity" starts REALLY deep - well behind the performers - and then projects out into the audience. He also moves nicely from left to right as he emerges. The projection out is not as strong as the depth, but overall it gives the goose bumps one expects.

While the ML's were not a revelation with "In The Flesh", they overall are about average with my experience with this disc, and this IS a rock disc, not necessarily the typical music for which one purchases modestly price Electrostat hybrids.

Next up will be a disc from Diana Krall: "Live in Paris".

Diana Krall Live in Paris

We can start here - the ML's love jazz and orchestra. There is nothing that jumps out at one on this disc, but it does have a lot "going on" that makes it a fun listen. Krall's voice comes through the ML's with excellent clarity and a lot of that "you are there" quality. When her voice does that "appealing cracking" thing for which she is known, it's palpable. When she whispers, it's clearly audible. Instead of being a disc that jumps at you, Krall makes you want to lean into the performance, and the ML's do this quite nicely.

Stand up bass is rendered as I hear it from a love jazz band at our club ... it's fast, clean and makes you move your feet without thinking about it. I am used to this live, but most speakers don't present this well. By most, I mean speakers under $3000 per pair. The Klipsch LaScalas soar with this disc, even more so than do the ML's - but they are also $7000 per pair, and were once a class "A" Stereophile speaker (limited bass response).

The ML's strength in micro dynamics REALLY shines here - the brushes by the drummer - the background noises of the audience. All that was missing was a single malt scotch and a cigar.

The ML's have made this disc one I want to hear again - and one can't ask for much more from a speaker than that, especially for $2500.

Tony Bennett Unplugged Live:

This disc starts off with drums, piano, stand up bass, and Tony crooning. The ML's immediately deliver to one both Tony's age ... and his incredible singing voice. Yes, you hear some crackle from him that wasn't there 35 years ago, but let's challenge any singer to match how this man can still hit the notes he does in his 5th decade performing. The man was 68 when he made this disc ... impressive.

The sound mix on this disc features Tony "front and center", and the ML's put him out front, right where he belongs. On "Fly Me To The Moon", Tony walks towards the back of the stage, and the ML's deliver this space wonderfully... then he comes forward again, and one can "see him move".

"Speak Low" starts with a single person snapping fingers, and quickly goes to several, and it sounds like several distinct people snapping, with Tony's voice coming through like silk, the stand up bass crystal clear. With the ML's, one knows it's going to be a great show. You hear everything ... his draw of a breath, the air of the hall.

"I Left My Heart In San Francisco" showcases his ability to hit the notes, and again, the ML's make a palpable statement about both how great he still is, and his age... then it goes directly into "Steppin Out With My Baby", and with the ML's, it's hard to sit still. These are a really fine speaker - one might expect Electrostats to be "dry", but these are not. They are musical, toe tapping treats.

"Moonglow" with KD Lang showcases the ML's talents with male and female voices simultaneously - you can see them looking at each other smiling while singing (remember, this is an SACD, no picture) ... the ML's create this picture.

The Diana Krall DVD and this SACD will definitely be required discs for all the speakers that are auditioned, and look for some comparisons and contrasts between the speakers with both these discs.

 

[Craig Chase]

Steely Dan 2 Against Nature:

2AN has been a staple of mine in the arena of assessing speakers for over a decade, and with good reason. Vocals are quite varied, the disc is possibly the best recording from Steely Dan, and it provides a musical test from below 20 Hz in some songs. Plus, it's a fun listen.

The ESLs showed off both their strengths and weaknesses with 2AN. The strengths are deep soundstage, excellent detail, surprisingly deep bass and tremendous presence with vocals. The weaknesses are in macro dynamics. Push them, and the ESLs will get harsh more quickly than one would expect at $2500 per pair. The good news: By the time the ESLs sounded harsh, the music was louder than most would care to listen over an extended time period.

2AN opens with "Gaslighting Abbie", then transitions into "What a Shame about Me". This transition in deep bass is remarkable. "What a Shame about Me" is one of several tracks with true "subwoofer deep bass", and the 8 inch woofer does an admirable job in delivering bass you can feel at moderate levels.

Soundstage is excellent - for example - On "Cousin Dupree", one can hear the vocals are towards the back of the stage. The one caveat on this is one must be in the "prime position" for the soundstage to work. The dispersion pattern of the ESL panel is quite different than with most loudspeakers. Simply standing up or moving two feet left/right changes the sound of the ESLs. Stay in that "sweet spot", though, keep the volume at moderate levels, and the ESLs provide a sonic treat to one's ears.

Amber Rubarth: Novocaine (Legacy Audio Disc)

Before starting this test, I had never heard of Amber Rubarth. Legacy includes this disc with each speaker purchase, so when I got the pair of Legacy Signature SE's earlier this year, listening to it was a "must". This track has become an invaluable tool in testing a speaker. Her vocals are haunting, and the recording is a gem. Each disc has its own set of challenges for a speaker, and Novocaine is no exception. The challenge here is in several of the "soaring moments" in which Amber hits both her vocals and her guitar "hard", lesser speakers will muddy her lyrics.

The ESL's love this song: As noted with other discs (Tony Bennett and Diana Krall), the ESL's love jazz and music at moderate levels. Sit in the sweet spot, and you can feel her pain. If you have not heard this song, you owe it to yourself to get it. The Acoustic Guitar, her playing it while crooning sweetly, some violin and live percussion is the whole performance.

There are a lot of speakers in the $300-$1500 per pair range at our place, and with one exception, none of those speakers was able to delineate all the lyrics in Novocaine. The ESL's did so with ease.

Supertramp: Brother, Where You Bound

This disc from the mid 80's is another great test of a loudspeaker's abilities. The title song is 18 minutes long and has everything from acoustic guitar to well preserved percussion to astounding sound effects. In the middle of the song (one must leave politics at the door and just enjoy the performance), there is a march of soldiers that starts from the right side of the soundstage, crossing in front of you, then exiting left.

As long as one is in the "sweet spot", the ESL's will present the march from outside the right wall, across the room, and exiting, just as the recording intends. Kick drum is tight and deep, and the ESLs do show some chops with a very demanding "Rock Anthem".

Other discs auditioned:

Michael Stanley: Live at Tangiers (see Tony Bennett)
Steely Dan: Aja (see 2 Against Nature)
Pink Floyd: The Wall (see Roger Waters In The Flesh)


Summary

The Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL Hybrid's stated goal is a lofty one: Can a speaker bring to the listener a high end, electrostat design to the masses at an affordable price? In order to do this, some compromises had to be made. One must listen to an 8 inch woofer up to the 500 Hz crossover. One must except that this is not a speaker to "rock the house", or impress your buddies with how well they can reproduce AC DC at reference levels.

Keep the listening levels moderate, and make sure you have the "sweet spot", and the ESLs will give one a high end sound for a lot less than one would expect to pay. They also have a "cool factor" that's hard to resist. Several of my friends who have seen them in person have suggested the purchase price is worth it just on looks alone. This 52 inch tall speaker LOOKS like it should cost $10,000.

If your favorite music tends towards live, unamplified performances, the ESLs should definitely be on your audition list.

 

[Craig Chase]

If one reads the text above, all the critical listening was done with a very nice receiver in two channel mode. The receiver in question is the Marantz 7008. When we get the two channel rig set up, the Martln Logans will be put through the paces with the (in theory) upgraded amp.

We have decided on the pre-amp and power amp combo. After several weeks of research, the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Pre Amp and matching Stellar M700 monobloc power amps are being ordered tomorrow.

 

[Craig Chase]

The PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Pre amp has shipped, along with two dedicated amp stands. The Stellar M700 power amp will ship when production is done. We will be putting the system together in this room, starting with the Martin Logans:

 

[Craig Chase]

The PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell preamp has arrived, and the cables are due tomorrow from Audio Advisor. The Martin Logans are already dialed in, and by this weekend, some serious listening will be happening.

 

[MTrotter]

Hmm... make sure to give a good listen to those Legacy Audio Signature SE speakers shown in the above pic! With great pre-amp and power amp, they should sing nicely.

 

[Craig Chase]

We are 72 hours into burn in. The Stellar Gain is opening up nicely, so I decided to spin 2 CD’s this afternoon. The CD’s were the original Dire Straits album and The Trinity Session from The Cowboy Junkies.

Starting with Dire Straits: In contrast with the Marantz, the vocals are much cleaner. Knopfler’s voice is often hard to make out over the instrumentals, but with the Stellar Gain, they are crystal clear. The guitar work is excellent, and we are getting closer to the analog sound of the original album. My personal history with the album dates back to 1978 with a Technics Direct Drive Turntable, a Marantz 3600 preamp with Marantz 250m power amp. At 18 years old, I loved this album for late night listening, and still do.

The Trinity Session is a terrific recording: single microphone at Toronto’s Church of the Holy Trinity. The Stellar Gain does a tremendous job at making Margot sound like she’s in the room, solid center, with the instruments behind her and off to different angles.

Another arena of note is, when I originally tested the Martin Logans in mid 2015, I noted that they were really good as long as one was in the “sweet spot” at the triangle point between the two speakers. The Stellar Gain makes them more listenable off axis, with some real sound stage, even when not in the sweet spot. In the sweet spot, the depth of The Trinity Session goes from pretty good to REALLY good with the Stellar Gain.

Keeping in mind that the Marantz has a “street price” in line with the Stellar Gain, and the Marantz has Audyssey XT-32, multiple HDMI inputs and outputs … etc … Subwoofer crossover with dual subwoofer outs, XLR out on all channels, Bluetooth input … etc … it’s an excellent value.

But for 2 channel, the Stellar Gain is much better. The Marantz never made me want to listen to more music. The Stellar Gain makes me want to not only LISTEN to more music, but to also add to my collection.

Now …. where is that CD of Little Feat “Waiting for Columbus”?

 

[Craig Chase]

Hmm... make sure to give a good listen to those Legacy Audio Signature SE speakers shown in the above pic! With great pre-amp and power amp, they should sing nicely.

Unfortunately, the Legacies are no longer in my possession. When we did the blind version of the review in 2015, they were slightly bested by the Axiom M100's. I know Axiom is not all that well known in American circles, but their research and development is world class. The M100's are also sold by Bryston through dealers as the A1. Bryston and Axiom have been collaborating for about 8 years now, and having spent several days in their double blind test listening area, I can attest to the quality.

That being said, when I sold the Legacies to a nice gentleman from about a 2 hour drive from me, something happened. When he auditioned the speakers, they were still fine and sounded good. We packed them into his minivan and off he went. When he arrived home and fired up the speakers, the tweeter in one of them started making serious distortion.

We contacted Legacy, and they were wonderful. Even though the warranty is to first owner only, they sent him a new tweeter free of charge, and now the unit is functioning perfectly.

Of course, this means the pair as reviewed had a tweeter that was not functioning at 100 % when it was here, and the 120 mile trip in the van caused the rest of the problems. While in my possession, there was no audible distortion (the buyer actually made a You Tube video for me to hear the problem), but we are certain it was also not 100%.

I would welcome the opportunity to get a pair of Focus here. I am also looking in Magnepan and a new company that has been advertising in Stereophile has expressed interest in getting a pair of speakers here.

 

[MTrotter]

Unfortunately, the Legacies are no longer in my possession. When we did the blind version of the review in 2015, they were slightly bested by the Axiom M100's. I know Axiom is not all that well known in American circles, but their research and development is world class. The M100's are also sold by Bryston through dealers as the A1. Bryston and Axiom have been collaborating for about 8 years now, and having spent several days in their double blind test listening area, I can attest to the quality.

That being said, when I sold the Legacies to a nice gentleman from about a 2 hour drive from me, something happened. When he auditioned the speakers, they were still fine and sounded good. We packed them into his minivan and off he went. When he arrived home and fired up the speakers, the tweeter in one of them started making serious distortion.

We contacted Legacy, and they were wonderful. Even though the warranty is to first owner only, they sent him a new tweeter free of charge, and now the unit is functioning perfectly.

Of course, this means the pair as reviewed had a tweeter that was not functioning at 100 % when it was here, and the 120 mile trip in the van caused the rest of the problems. While in my possession, there was no audible distortion (the buyer actually made a You Tube video for me to hear the problem), but we are certain it was also not 100%.

I would welcome the opportunity to get a pair of Focus here. I am also looking in Magnepan and a new company that has been advertising in Stereophile has expressed interest in getting a pair of speakers here.

Yes, the Focus SE, with their additional mid-woofer and two 12 inch woofers really "bring it". Great to hear about how Legacy helped you guys out. BTW, my set of Legacy Audio Signature II(from the 1990s) are still sounding great, although I would really like to upgrade to the newer technology of a set of Focus SE or Aeris.