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DVDvision

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And more from David Simon, all interesting points regarding this thread subject.
I am completely aware that HD and 16:9 are different technological enhancements. And I am neither defending nor attacking HBO here, save for acknowledging — because it is the absolute truth — that they own The Wire, having paid more than $100 million to complete the project when ratings were so insubstantial that its completion was improbable. It is their product to display. You would do well to give yourself less credit for reading between the lines and instead assume that I have taken pains to say exactly what I intend.If you are a filmmaker, then you cannot overlook the empty hole at the center of your argument — the fact that you refuse to acknowledge that choices are made at the point of composing every shot and filming every shot that do not merely involve the width and length of the frame, but the depth and definition of the image. You are oblivious to the thousands of times in the actual filming of The Wire that the crew stood around the monitors, watching playback, and trying to assess whether something in background that we didn’t want to “read” would in fact “read” upon broadcast. Decisions were then made that the SD presentation would ensure that we would never pick up, say, the black ink over Andre Royo’s teeth, or a street sign that actually doesn’t comport to dialogue about the claimed location, or the fact that Stringer Bell is breathing in frame after being shot to death.
Film is artifice. We are lying at every ****ing moment, trying to conjure fictional imagery and suspend disbelief, and we are doing so with finite time and resources. Choices must be made about how much daylight and money can be spent protecting in background and deep background against dozens of falsities in every single shot. We must, as filmmakers, prioritize, moving on to fresh work when we feel we have covered a scene sufficiently without so great a fraud embedded in the frame that the film is undercut. And we make every one of those calculations knowing the format in which the film is to be broadcast and released.Now, years later, technology advances and what was once “safe” in small details and background material becomes more visible to the eye. Now one of the film’s most important assets as a means of storytelling — its ability to suspend the viewer’s disbelief — is made vulnerable in many, many different ways. Not merely by the change in aspect-ratio, but by the introduction of HD display on television. Is there a gain for the viewer in seeing things more clearly defined? Of course. But there is also corresponding cost in credibility elsewhere. And I can tell you, being internal to the HD transfer process, that decisions were made in every episode about how much time and money we had to fix all of the myriad “flaws” that were exposed in that transfer. We did the best we could. We focused on the more egregious exposures. But make no mistake, the transfer of the film to HD revealed unintended problems that would not have been problems otherwise, in the same way that a change in aspect-ratio does.Is it worth upgrading the film? Maybe so. Certainly as a financial question, it is worth it to HBO. But the hypocrisy of people now claiming HD as the “truest” form of the film, merely because it can be achieved using the original film and present technology, while wailing jeremiads about a change in aspect-ratio, which in the case of The Wire can also be achieved using the original film without pan-and-scan, is profound. The filmmakers’ intention was to tell a story that would be acquired in 4:3 with standard definition. Those were our givens. We executed every decision with complete awareness of those givens. We protected our imagery with those specifications guiding us. And indeed, when on occasions such as premiere showings, we displayed episodes of the drama in a film theater rather than on television — a scenario that you use to premise your argument above — we did indeed have to sit and wince to see some of our artifice exposed. But of course, we were not making the film for theater distribution and display, so these rare occasions were hardly disconcerting. We knew that we had protected for the actual medium in which our work was to be acquired by its audience.Now you want to talk about the “true” form of our film and make after-the-fact declarations about what the new givens should be? And you don’t see that you’re simply valuing the “enhancements” that you do, and not valuing those that you don’t? You don’t see that you are no more a film purist than any hack who wants the black bars off his widescreen? Sorry, no. We made the film when we made it and every single decision was made with the specifications of 4:3 and SD in mind. You want to stay pure, you watch the DVDs. You want to play around with the film beyond that, then be honest about your role. And maybe think twice before you lecture someone else about what they should and shouldn’t do on behalf of your personal values and priorities.HBO is choosing to apply today’s standard technologies to a film made to different specifications with regard to not only width or length, but to depth as well. Having paid to complete that 60-hour film when it had little audience, they are now attempting to enhance their revenue stream. They have that absolute right. As one of the filmmakers, I believe my role is to do my best to protect the integrity of the film within that process and to influence the process for the better. If HBO decides to offer the film in other formats or other venues, it will remain my role. There is nothing written between those lines, much as you might think yourself possessed of such insight that you imagine some additional words there.
 

Simon Massey

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It’s funny to me how presumed defenders of filmic purity are so strident in demanding that the film remain 4:3 while in the same breath clamoring for a different equation with regard to depth and focus. That’s not purity. That’s simply arguing for a re-edit of the film to your particular satisfaction.
I wouldn't necessarily argue against the fact that some feel that way but equally if the intent of the filmmaker is an SD look that should be preserved. The Blair Witch Project is a great example - I would not expect HD clarity - but blurays and advancements in encoding etc allow for a better representation of the intent of the filmmakers that the DVDs can't achieve - more accurate colour representation for one. It is exactly why release such as Predator and Patton were so ridiculed by purists when they removed all the grain
 

Hollywoodaholic

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Pretty interesting. His argument goes against any HD presentation of something that was originally SD and not just the aspect ratio. And he's right. Sets for shows originally prepared for SD broadcast don't hold up to HD and were never intended to. Neither was makeup, wigs or effects. We've seen the evolution of all those elements to accommodate the unforgiving detailed eye of HD. We embrace the HD presentation of our favorite older shows but, in reality, its just an egregious breach of the original intent as colorization or new digital effects. So again, I say, as long as the original presentation exists, embrace or reject what you want in any new presentations but no one should pretend to be the arbitrator of what is "correct" and what isn't in those presentations.

"...don’t see that you’re simply valuing the “enhancements” that you do, and not valuing those that you don’t? You don’t see that you are no more a film purist than any hack who wants the black bars off his widescreen?"
 

TravisR

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Hollywoodaholic said:
Pretty interesting. His argument goes against any HD presentation of something that was originally SD and not just the aspect ratio. And he's right. Sets for shows originally prepared for SD broadcast don't hold up to HD and were never intended to. Neither was makeup, wigs or effects. We've seen the evolution of all those elements to accommodate the unforgiving detailed eye of HD. We embrace the HD presentation of our favorite older shows but, in reality, its just an egregious breach of the original intent as colorization or new digital effects. So again, I say, as long as the original presentation exists, embrace or reject what you want in any new presentations but no one should pretend to be the arbitrator of what is "correct" and what isn't in those presentations.
By that rationale, you shouldn't watch The Twilight Zone or Star Trek any other way than on maybe a 20 inch TV while receiving the signal from a rooftop antenna because that's how it was originally seen. It's not just Blu-ray, any home video release of those shows would have been head and shoulders above their original broadcasts.

As I've said before, I'm willing to go with The Wire being changed because Simon & company were involved but changing the aspect ratio is not the same thing as increasing the resolution.
 

Simon Massey

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Simon's involvement in the process of converting The Wire is the one positive aspect of this and if he argues in this particular case that the DVDs are the most accurate representation of their intent, fine. I have them and won't need an HD release after all. (Though I would still argue that an HD release is more than just resolution). It seems to me that this has been a far more painstaking attempt to covert the show to 16x9 than say what is being seen with The X Files or Buffy the Vampire Slayer on TV and HBO deserve credit for involving the filmmakers in the process.

However, while I pretty much agree with the main point Simon is making, I disagree on the notion that a release on Bluray preserving the look and feel of the original show including OAR and whatever definition protects the integrity of the shots required is unnecessary and that people should "just buy the DVDs" for that. So what happens when DVDs no longer are used or are obsolete? Will we see The Wire 16:9 version ultimately supplant the original ? (Probably). Do HBO have the right to do it ? Absolutely but it doesn't mean it should be done.

It isn't just about simply valuing the particular "enhancements" that someone prefers. One only needs to look at the alterations to the original Star Wars films and the lack of availability of the "original" to see where this is heading. In fact, I think it could reasonably be argued that what Simon is doing in a sense is no different to what Lucas did - creating a different albeit alternate version that will ultimately supplant the original over time due to availability.


So again, I say, as long as the original presentation exists
That is a big assumption.
 

Hollywoodaholic

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TravisR said:
By that rationale, you shouldn't watch The Twilight Zone or Star Trek any other way than on maybe a 20 inch TV while receiving the signal from a rooftop antenna because that's how it was originally seen.
We're talking about the original content before it's sent out, not how it's received. (But prepared with an awareness of the existing platforms and presentation of the time).
 

DVDvision

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There many interesting things David Simon stirs up in his answers.

For example, I only had access at home to a black and white TV back in the seventies.

I only saw The Prisoner in black and white on it's original french run, and thought it was a black and white show like Danger Man. (Remember no access to the internet, or books on the series then, especially in France).

Only when it was rerun in the early 80's, did I discovered it was a color show.

In black and white -- most of the front projections are nearly invisible. They are way obvious in color.

Back in the sixties, most people would have seen the show in black and white, thus it's original impact was as a bw show.

BW was ironing out many of the most obvious effects in color. So in essence, it wasn't the same show once color TV was everywhere, and it was already transformed from the original presentation, in parts for better effects (the amazing sixties colors) in part for less (more shoody looking visual effects).

Older TV shows, (pre widescreen TV) by essence, had transformed themselves already by the time they came to VHS and color TV.
 

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One more thing: People have excused this release because an artist like David Simon is involved. This is a tricky situation, since he created the series, but after thinking about it, I think it's pretty clear that Simon is far from the person who's judgement fans of the series can place their faith in.

Yes, David Simon is the creator of the show, and yes, he wrote the series (along with others) and collaborated with others on how to shoot it. But David Simon never directed a single episode. In fact, David Simon has never directed anything, nor has he ever served as DP on anything. He has written many episodes of television series, and produced even more. And that last role is what he is filling here.

As Simon said in his blog, the person most directly responsible for the visual composition of the series, Bob Colesberry, died midway through the series. I think this passage from his updated blog post is revealing:
It is no exaggeration that Bob had to explain “crossing the line” to me a dozen times, often twice in the same day, before my brain could grasp a concept that first-year film students everywhere take for granted.
I’m trying to make clear that while I might have learned to put film in the can in a basic way before the marriage to Mr. Colesberry, I had no claim to anything remotely resembling a film auteur. It was Bob who created the visual template for The Corner and The Wire both, and having died suddenly after the latter drama’s second season, it is Bob who is remembered wistfully every time we begin to construct the visuals for some fresh narrative world.
David Simon never went to film school, and never received a degree in visual arts. He did receive a degree in Undergraduate Studies at UMD College Park, and I know he's a highly intelligent and gifted writer, who held many jobs as show runner on The Wire...

[SIZE=14.2857141494751px]But it would seem that, for all Mr. Colesberry's training, Simon never actually picked up a camera and shot material that ended up on broadcast, a distance he has seemingly maintained in all later projects, if credits are accurate. While I haven't read all of the comments on his blog, it is telling, too, that even though he has been presented with sound arguments on the importance of aspect ratio preservation, he has never, as far as I can see, acknowledged the importance of aspect ratio preservation. [/SIZE]

One hesitates to say that David Simon is "not qualified" to change the composition of The Wire, but at the same time, I think it's clear that:

-Simon is not responsible for the changes, HBO is.

-All Simon will do is view a handful of examples and give feedback.

-Simon prefers to have a bastardized version of the show airing again, versus the original series not airing again, and prefers that people watch the show on other devices (e.g. phones) if they do not wish to view it on TV or disc.

-Simon does not come at this version of the series from the same angle as a director or cinematographer would with a film, but instead comes at his series seeing it as a product to be re-sold to audiences.

-Simon still works for HBO, and is in no position to jeopardize his job.

What is disappointing, for me, at least, is that Simon seems powerless to affect any sort of change and bring us a 4:3 Blu-ray version. Truly I hope that, privately, Simon is very disappointed at the prospect of people watching his series in 16:9 and on mobile devices.
 

Simon Massey

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HDvision said:
There many interesting things David Simon stirs up in his answers.For example, I only had access at home to a black and white TV back in the seventies.I only saw The Prisoner in black and white on it's original french run, and thought it was a black and white show like Danger Man. (Remember no access to the internet, or books on the series then, especially in France).Only when it was rerun in the early 80's, did I discovered it was a color show.In black and white -- most of the front projections are nearly invisible. They are way obvious in color.Back in the sixties, most people would have seen the show in black and white, thus it's original impact was as a bw show.BW was ironing out many of the most obvious effects in color. So in essence, it wasn't the same show once color TV was everywhere, and it was already transformed from the original presentation, in parts for better effects (the amazing sixties colors) in part for less (more shoody looking visual effects).Older TV shows, (pre widescreen TV) by essence, had transformed themselves already by the time they came to VHS and color TV.
I'm not sure how the way someone has viewed the show affects meeting the intent of the creators/filmmakers - I first saw a lot of films in VHS pan n scan and probably quite a few tv shows in black and white myself. If the creators of The Prisoner had dressed sets and characters with a view to a black and white show then it should be BW.And to be honest the only thing Simon has stirred up is the debates that have been going on for some time - he has input into The Wire for which I will consider his opinion, though equally I think McCrutchy has a point. But at present he does have more insight into The Wire than others.
 

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TravisR said:
By that rationale, you shouldn't watch The Twilight Zone or Star Trek any other way than on maybe a 20 inch TV while receiving the signal from a rooftop antenna because that's how it was originally seen. It's not just Blu-ray, any home video release of those shows would have been head and shoulders above their original broadcasts.
I was pretty lucky. I saw very few Star Trek episodes on TV during its original broadcast (and the ones I did see were all on a b&w TV). My first exposure to many ST episodes was on 16mm film prints projected in hotel ballrooms during science fiction conventions in the 1970s. They've never looked so good since. (And we used to see the Blooper Reel, too!)
 

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Not really digging the HD version of "The Wire" on HBO Signature. It just looks zoomed, a little too tight. Others might not notice and many shows shoot this tight first time out, but it doesn't fit this show as well. I'll stick with my SD box set.
 

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Don't know if this one has been mentioned, but it's an odd one. COZI TV seems to be showing a widescreen version of THE DANNY THOMAS SHOW / a.k.a. MAKE ROOM FOR DADDY.

I've watched at least one episode and can't figure out how they're accomplishing it. The show is FAR, FAR, from HD, yet there it is, in 16:9. It doesn't look like the head and feet are chopped, but maybe that was just the episode I picked to watch.

Harry
 

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Make Room for Daddy was filmed on 35MM like most any prime time American sitcom of the era and was composed for 4:3 in mind. It's cropped on Cozi for the full-screen fetish crowd that can't bear the pillarboxing.

An odd decision to say the least for a classic tv network.
 

Harry-N

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LeoA said:
Make Room for Daddy was filmed on 35MM like most any prime time American sitcom of the era and was composed for 4:3 in mind. It's cropped on Cozi for the full-screen fetish crowd that can't bear the pillarboxing.

An odd decision to say the least for a classic tv network.
That's what I don't understand. This show is an old black & white sitcom, made for a generation that watched TV on black & white 4:3 TVs. So why is this "classic TV" network showing widescreen versions? And for that matter, why are they showing season 10 and 11, when MeTV does not?

Looking at the schedule, it looks as if the series is leaving Cozi's weekday schedule after this week, with just a weekend listing thereafter in the new year.

Harry
 

AndyMcKinney

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Simon Massey said:
It's not a surprise - the "fill my screen whatever" crowd are far more dominant when it comes to TV broadcast
Does Cozi broadcast in HD (I don't have them in my area)? I assumed all the classic networks were on second-tier channels, meaning 480i broadcasts, which would not fill a 16:9 screen anyway (since 16:9 was never added to the American SD broadcast standard). On such a channel, there'd be black bars on all four sides of the picture.
 

Harry-N

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AndyMcKinney said:
Does Cozi broadcast in HD (I don't have them in my area)? I assumed all the classic networks were on second-tier channels, meaning 480i broadcasts, which would not fill a 16:9 screen anyway (since 16:9 was never added to the American SD broadcast standard). On such a channel, there'd be black bars on all four sides of the picture.
That's the way it appears in Orlando - bars on four sides. Really dumb.
 

Simon Massey

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AndyMcKinney said:
Does Cozi broadcast in HD (I don't have them in my area)? I assumed all the classic networks were on second-tier channels, meaning 480i broadcasts, which would not fill a 16:9 screen anyway (since 16:9 was never added to the American SD broadcast standard). On such a channel, there'd be black bars on all four sides of the picture.
Ah sorry didn't realise this as I don't live in US.
 

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