Should amps have own outlets? (1 Viewer)

[John Royster]

Russ, you do realize that one cannot stop lightning?

 

[RussKon]

john,
if you do a little reading online, you will find out how much of the lightning actually gets into your house....
www.surgex.com
there are many links to technical papers and u.s. government standards about how you really can stop lightning!!!
in summary...even though lightning can be over 50,000 volts at 20,000 amps...the UL labs have determined that anything above 6000 volts at 3000 amps will short out at your service mians in your breaker box....so the standard for protection inside a facility (or house) is protection rated at 6000 volts with 3000 amps...
there are at least three different companies offering this level of protection for your equipment...
www.surgex.com
www.brickwall.com
www.zerosurge.com
if you take some time and do a little reading you will realize that you can stop lightning...(at least in your home)
russ

 

[Kirk Mango]

Russ,

Great response. I am clear on everything you are saying. A couple of questions. Wouldn't egineers in companies like B&K, Krell, Rel, etc. know about the better surge protectors available, like the ones you mention? The statement I made regarding seperate circuits has to do with the idea that replenishing the amplifiers power would be difficult to do with two big amplifiers, and possibly a powered sub, connecte to only one 20 amp circuit. Especially with scenes in a movie where a lot of continuous amplification is being used (like the scenes I mentioned earlier). This is my understanding of why B&K and Rel suggest seperate circuitsfor their amplification. Doesn't Adding a surge protector limit this ability even further?

As you stated the surge protector limits inrush of current, is this different whether this powering up comes from turning on the cold amplifiers or inrush during scenes in movies like I discribed. Can the surge protector tell the difference?

Would the surge protectors you suggest limit current flow during operation and in scenes like I mentioned? If not, Which of the three would you recomend would be best (if I wanted to purchase 3 different ones because I have 3 different areas in a room where equipment is at). Each of which have there own dedicated circuits. I would want the most protection without the need for more then one or 2 outlets in each. How much does your suggestion run? Are they $200 each or way up from that?

KM

 

[Mark R O]

Rich- It's probable that all the floor outlets in your room are linked into a single circuit, and quite possibly the room next to it. Light switches tend to be daisey chained as well. Ever hear a speaker make a pop when a light is switched? Or see the fridge turning on cause a quick dimming of lamps and lighting? That's what we are up against. But seperate outlets for amps/components is
still a smart measure. Changing outlets is 2 wire simple, yet margin for error is ZERO. Besides, it's very inexpensive to have it done by a handyman while you recline and sip malt beverages.
Phobia of renegade leathal power surges incinerating equipment is a tad excessive. Sure, bolt hits on antenneas take out a few Curtis Mathis consoles every year, but protecting against less Divine rath is plug in simple and inexpensive. The whole point of upgraded outlets, dedicated, earth grounded lines and power cord exchanges is to make a system sound and look better. Taking these steps virtually guarantees improved performance. All the care taken selecting one components subtle advantages over another, concern over a couple of Hz or distortion points is wasted time if a $1.99 power strip feeds it.

 

[RussKon]

I would want the most protection without the need for more then one or 2 outlets in each. How much does your suggestion run? Are they $200 each or way up from that?

the two outlet surge-x unit rated a 15 amps retails for about $260 and the 20 amp units are over $400...you can check the brickwall site for their pricing...
www.brickwall.com
www.surgex.com
russ

 

[RussKon]

Phobia of renegade leathal power surges incinerating equipment is a tad excessive. Sure, bolt hits on antenneas take out a few Curtis Mathis consoles every year

actually,i personally like thunderstorms and the damage that the associated lightning causes...i sell electronics at the distributor level...every time we have a severe lightning storm that moves through minnesota, iowa, wisconsin, and the dakotas i am assured of selling 5 to 15 amplifers and other equipment that got toasted in the storm...

you can either buy a new amplifier or protect it in the first place...and i'm not even talking about what it costs your business if you are down for a day because you're network got fried....

"tad excessive"....i think not...

your choice..roll the dice.... protect now with an effective surge protector or call me later when your amp and all the associated equipment dies...

russ

 

[James Zos]

I knew a woman in Iowa City whose house got struck by lighting, and everything electrical in the house - even things that weren't plugged in, like her toaster - were destroyed.
But, she had insurance, and so she got to go on a shopping spree, new TV, new everything. Almost makes me wish my house would get hit by lightning.

 

[RussKon]

james,

that philosophy works until you have something that can't be replaced...a great old tube amplifier...or whatever...

the $250 to $400 that you spend on a really good surge protector is worth it if you have some very good equipment or equipment that cannot be easily replaced....


russ

 

[Yogi]

And as I stated earlier, if I rurn my 7250 off and let it drain. Then turn it back on when it is completely cold. It will pop the 20 amp breaker.

Which indicates that either there is something wrong with your amp or there is something wrong with your 20 amp breaker. The B&K is not supposed to pop a 20 amp breaker. esp. if it has a 2 amp inrush current fuse and a 15 amp line fuse.

Also something to remember is that power conditioners limit the inrush current at startup but otherwise dont limit the current in any way. Also during the battle scenes with lots of action and explosions there is very little inrush current if any as the output devices are sucking the power off the capacitors and not directly from the AC line. This way the caps act as power filters and also limit the amount of inrush current going into the amp, except from cold start. Even then like I said an amp like the B&K shouldn't pop a 20 amp breaker. That is something of concern if I were you.

 

[Chu Gai]

well my take on this is why not at least put them on their own outlet. after all, significant others have their own things, pocketbooks, shoes to match everything ranging from an appearance on the Gong Show to a Presidential State Dinner sowhy shouldn't we have ours? while personally, i don't buy much into some of the statements associated with current limiting, i must state that my position is not shared with regards to surge protectors and amps as evidenced by some email exchanges i had with Bryston, perhaps one of the more rational companies out there. their position is that if one were to choose between the two flavors of surge protection, shunt vs series mode, one should gear their choices to shunt based units as they in general do not 'limit' current. thankfully, there's no shortage of decent surge protectors out there in all sorts of permutations. if anyone's interested i'll elaborate on that with respect to Bryston's position.
for new construction, for the DIY'r comfortable around electricity, adding one or more additional outlets is neither a big thing nor an expensive one. one can, if they want, get beefier outlets, more sophisticated breakers, or whatever it is they want to do.
as far as my good friend, Mr. Royster...well all I can say, is if you want to protect your home from lightning you most certainly can. one need simply model one's approach to what the big boys are doing. telcos, chip manufacturers, satellite communication facilities, they all do it and do it effectively. keep in mind the empire state building is struck a couple of dozen times a year and neither are its residents, nor its ability to provide programming affected. king kong though, he made problems. it all depends upon your need or desire and of course, funds.

 

[Kirk Mango]

Yogi,

There is nothing wrong with the amp nor the breaker. Accoring to B&K the amp is rated to 17 amps and when cold on initial start up can pull over 30 amps through the line. This can pop the 20 amp breaker. Once capacitors are charged, max amp draw is 17. When the breaker is reset and the amp powered up again the breaker is fine. The 7250 does have a 15 amp inline fuse, which has blown once on start up before, but it is slow blow where breakers in the house are not. The 2amp fuse has never blown.

The reason for the original post of mine was the idea of putting a 17 max amp draw amplifier, a 12 max amp draw amplifier, and a subwoofer with its own amp all on one 20 amp circuit was to much and is one reason many manufacturers of amplifiers recomend seperate circuits for their equipment.

KM

 

[Yogi]

Kirk, so every time you have to power up your amp you have to go and reset your breaker? I am lucky that my 7250 never ever popped my 15 amp breaker. I guess thats the reason I never felt the need to upgrade my breakers. I have a 200 amp main breaker and 12 guage wiring throughout my home so all I have to do to upgrade my circuits is to change the breakers to 20 amp ones (talk about laziness) as the 12 guage wiring is rated for 20 amp anyways. I have my Proceed 2 channel amp (for the mains), the B&K 7250 (for the rest) and my 12" velo all plugged into a 15 amp circuit and all the rest of digital gear in another 15 amp circuit, and I never had a breaker reset in either startup or at reference level action movies.

 

[RussKon]

kirk,
i have an alternative to your trek to your breaker box everytime you power up your amplifier...
(from the surge-x website)
"All electronic equipment has a power supply which charges-up when the power is first turned on. This causes a momentary inrush current which is typically five to ten times the normal operating current. Signal processing equipment and other low-power equipment will not individually have a problematic inrush current but, when several pieces of equipment are turned on simultaneously, there can be a large inrush. However, the real offenders are the big amplifiers, especially those with switching power supplies. Some amplifiers have inrush current limiting built-in but many do not. In the case of amplifiers with no limiting, the only thing that limits the inrush current is the resistance of the copper wire between the panel and the amplifier! Peak currents of 200 Amps have been measured with some amplifiers. Powering up even one of these amplifiers can blow a circuit breaker, and powering up two or three simultaneously almost certainly will. Relay and switch contacts can also eventually weld together when subjected to these huge inrush energies. SurgeX-ICE® soft turn-on totally eliminates inrush current problems. You can connect as many pieces of equipment as you like to a SurgeX-ICE® product (provided, of course, that the total load is not exceeded) and you never have to worry about the inrush current or the need to install expensive time-delay circuit breakers."
www.surgex.com
russ

 

[Kirk Mango]

Yogi,

I keep my system in sleep mode almost all the time. It has never caused a problem when watching movies or at any other time. Every couple of months or so I will shut down my system to let the memory in the preamp clear, (Per B&K recomendations), and then reboot it up into sleep mode so as to clear out any files that may have been corrupted. The majority of the time there is no problem. Every once in a while that 20 amp breaker will pop. I know that if I had a surge protector on my amps that would not happen. However, I have talked to B&K personally and they recomeded for peak performance to just plug them right into the wall. That is how they are run at their plant. I do have all other equipment in surge protectors but as everyone knows surges, whether from lightning or anywhere else, will seek out the path of least resistance. I am toying with the idea of the surge protection that Russ has suggested. I am aware of the risk I am taking by not running surge protection in my amps. Still feel seperate circuits for amplifiers is better which forces me to have to purchase 3 or 4 different surge protectors. This will run me the cost of a pretty good quality DVD player.

KM

 

[Aaron Copeland]

I've got a question for you guys. I have an amp that hums. It's not loud, but I can hear the hum if place my ear within about 3 feet or so. Running on a dedicated circuit is currently not an option for since I'm in a rented town-house. Is there any way to get rid of this hum? Would any of the surge protectors mentioned in this thread clean up the power supply, or would I need something else?

 

[Brian OK]

Aaron,

Make sure your amp and pre/pro (or receiver/ separate amps) are on the same circuit, plugged into the same duplex outlet. Your pre and amps can be on separate conditioners -- but just as long as they are both into the same circuit/duplex outlet. This is particularly true for flagship receivers acting as a pre for separate amps.

Also other remedies (short of buying a Ah! Offset Killer from dedicatedaudio.com for $185., or possibly an Ultimate Outlet from PS Audio for $300-400.) can be found by running a search at audioasylum.com -- use keywords "transformer hum" under the TWEAKS forum.
There are other remedies found here, as not one is the cure all. Note that dimmers and other "appliances" fall under the category of GUILTY.
I know, it is annoying as hell to be tracing a hum situation. Just be patient. I run dedicated circuits for my system and found that dedicated circuits are not immune to an amp hum condition -- that is how nasty this problem can be.

Good Luck,

BOK

 

[Chu Gai]

when you say the amp hums is that with nothing at all attached? in other words is the hum originating from within the amp?

 

[Ryan Wright]

Does a different outlet necessarily entail a different circuit? That is, if I want my components on a different circuit than my amps, can I just plug the former into a different outlet (with a strip) and consider the job done?

I don't see an answer to this question, so here it is:

No. Houses have multiple circuits that are shared across various parts of the house. Typical residential wiring will share your lighting and your outlets in a couple of rooms on a single circuit. Generally speaking, all of the outlets in a given room - and probably all of the outlets in the next room over - are on a single 15 amp circuit.

This is why, when I have all of my servers & HT gear powered up, my wife can't plug a hair dryer into the bathroom on the other side of the wall. It draws too much current and the circuit breaker pops.

Best bet if you want a dedicated circuit is to have an electrician put one in for you. You will get another circuit breaker added to your existing breaker box and another outlet somewhere in your house that is solely controlled by this new breaker.

Hope this helps.

 

[James Zos]

"Houses have multiple circuits that are shared across various parts of the house. Typical residential wiring will share your lighting and your outlets in a couple of rooms on a single circuit."

Ack! Does this mean the difference in sound I thought I heard when plugging my three monoblocks into their own power strip in a different outlet was imaginary? Since they were sharing the same current with everything else anyway?

 

[Ryan Wright]

Ack! Does this mean the difference in sound I thought I heard when plugging my three monoblocks into their own power strip in a different outlet was imaginary? Since they were sharing the same current with everything else anyway?

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

Were they sharing the same circuit with everything else? If they were in the same room, chances are very high that they were.

Was there a real difference in sound? That I can't say. Moving them to another outlet could have put them far enough away from other noise sources on the same circuit to give you that difference. I don't know a lot about electrical noise and how it crosses over; others here would be better suited to answer that question.

I still say, "Use your ear." If it sounds better to you, it was worth the effort.