Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (4 Viewers)

[Josh Steinberg]

I didn't think Threshold was great, but I don't know that I would have called it one of the worst episodes ever -- so if that's as bad as the show gets, that's pretty good! It seems every Trek does an evolution or changing form episode at some point or another, where a crew member gets infected by something or otherwise altered and starts turning into something else. I'm not a huge fan of those episodes. I don't really buy it. I can buy the science of the transporter or warp drive, but I find it harder to believe that the human body could be transmogrified so quickly or effectively and then back again. That seems more like hocus pocus than advanced science. And since we know that whichever cast or crew member in question isn't going to stay a lizard or whatever forever, the outcome of the episode is immediately telegraphed at the start.

But as far as bad goes, honestly, I just watched the accidental time travel to the 20th century two-parter Future's End, and I thought that was worse than Threshold. It wasn't the worst thing I've ever seen in my life, but it went on far too long, especially knowing in advance that it wasn't going to lead to anything. Clearly, they're not getting home early in a third season episode of a seven season show. I also didn't like that the episode suggested that in the 29th century, they're aware of all time travel and instantly take steps to stop the future being changed. I hate the idea because that would invalidate every other Trek time travel episode ever -- because the 29th century is the future for all iterations of Star Trek, so how come these people never stopped time travel in TOS, TNG, DS9 and ENT? It's too big of a concept to be used only once in a universe that has dealt with time travel many times. This didn't need to be a two parter. I was so over it by the time the first part ended.

 

[Jason_V]

I agree with you, Josh. It's not terrible...just...it goes off the rails at times. There are FAR worse episodes of Voyager (and the franchise) for my money. Shades of Gray, And the Children Shall Lead, Profit and Lace, Unexpected, Precious Cargo.

Treshold at least starts with a good premise. These others...not so much.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

For better or worse, I'm not a huge fan of most of the Trek two-parters that I've seen over the years. (And it's the same for a lot of other shows I watch as well.) I think it just may be that these shows are built to produce a self-contained story on a weekly basis that lasts an hour, and the two parters often seem "off" to be in an almost intangible way. The structure is all off, the pacing is off, and it frequently seems like they have (at best) 1 1/2 episodes worth of content rather than two.

It's similar to how I feel about a lot of "extended" episodes that some shows do on special occasions. NBC would occasionally run "supersized" episodes of The Office that would run longer than the traditional 30 minute timeslot. AMC, especially towards the end of its run, would air longer episodes of Breaking Bad that went beyond the one hour slot. To me, more often than not, they just felt longer, but nothing else seemed to go with the longer running time - no extra sense of excitement, just.. more.

Nicholas Meyer is fond of the quote "Art thrives on limitations" and I think he's absolutely right. Having a requirement to deliver an hour program with act breaks in certain places, that corresponds to a certain running time, with certain budget and content restrictions, has ultimately benefited many, many shows. (The example I always use for Trek is the transporter - that device has led to a number of wonderful storytelling ideas, and has become a signature device for all of Trek, but it exists because they didn't have the budget to do an effect for landing the ship on a planet each week. If the show had unlimited time and money, they would have found a way to land the Enterprise regularly, and the world of the show would have lost out on a very cool innovation.)

I think two-parters often fall into that same category - they sacrifice the chance to make a really incredible single episode for a mediocre double episode. What's considered the best Star Trek two-parter? The Best Of Both Worlds? Part 1 is amazing, but Part 2 is merely good. Knowing that Patrick Stewart remained in the cast, and the limitations of episodic TV carrying plot points forward in the late 80s/early 90s, and you just know before it starts that everything will be OK in the end. The vibe is completely different from Part 1 to Part 2. I love that we get to see Spock again courtesy of Unification, but the two-parter is padded so much that it ultimately feels inconsequential. (Scotty's appearance in Relics is probably my favorite appearance of an original cast member in TNG, in no small part because the episode still behaves like a normal TNG episode.)

If Voyager ultimately needed only one episode to do a George Takei cameo and to completely expand the world of Star Trek VI, I don't see why they needed two episodes to do a time travel story that's completely inconsequential to the world of Trek.

 

[Jason_V]

With very few exceptions, Trek Part II's aren't great. Part of that is how the end of season cliffhangers are written (Part II is written after everyone comes back from summer break) and part of it living up to Part I. By and large, Part I's are amazing almost right down the line.

The only Part II's which hold up for me are The Circle (I know, I'm cheating on that one), By Inferno's Light (another cheat, maybe?), Scorpion, In a Mirror, Darkly, Chain of Command and most of Best of Both Worlds. All the others are deeply flawed for me, either because too much story is shoved into the episode (Redemption), they're just boring (Birthright) or the story could have been so much beefier (The Search).

The "remastered" movies for TNG created from two part episodes are glaring in their quality difference. The second half lagged in all of them for me.

 

[Sam Favate]

Mixing it up this weekend, we showed the boys Journey to Babel (which they enjoyed) and TNG's Starship Mine (which they loved). I try to pick a variety of shows that have excitement and action but also introduce new elements and ideas. Anyway, it's a rainy day here, so we're getting set for ST III on the big screen (big for us, 108") today, which will end the barrage of questions I have gotten since we watched TWOK. ("How can they search for Spock when he's dead?")

UPDATE: Comments during ST III: (Very nervous) "Wait. They're only blowing up the bridge, right? Not the whole ship?" (Yes, they are.) "They are?!?"
"Yay! Spock's alive!"
"What ship do they get next? The Enterprise-E?"

 

[benbess]

There have been so many bad Trek theatrical movies, that I've often turned to the two-part Trek episodes for a Trek "movie" experience that works for me. In contrast with Josh, I like most of them. They seem like little Trek movies to me, and at c. 88 minutes each, they don't really overstay their welcome imho. But obviously ymwv.

 

[The Obsolete Man]

Giles and the best Doctor of the new series auditioned to be Sisko on DS9

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017...almost-a-star-trek-lead-new-documents-reveal/

Now that makes for an interesting "what if".

 

[Sam Favate]

Quick question:

Does anyone know if the blu-ray steelbook editions that were issued in the UK last year are region-free or region 2?

I've seen conflicting information.

 

[Blimpoy06]

http://lalalandrecords.com/

La-La Land Records holding Flash Sale on all of their Star Trek releases this weekend.

 

[Greg_S_H]

Rare footage of the TOS crew being inducted into the National Association of Broadcasters' Hall of Fame:

 

[BobO'Link]

I just finished Voyager's Tuvix episode. That was a 3rd or 4th viewing (I've lost track of how many times I've watched each of the series) but still a moving episode. Like Jason mentioned earlier, I'm surprised there were no ongoing repercussions from the events that took place. What a missed opportunity!

One thing that stuck out. The principals are discussing how the merge may have happened and Janeway wants Paris to go to the planet and get some of the flowers for testing. He tells her "It's best to wait until morning because the weather at night is horrible." OK... they can go to any part of the planet at any time. Day side, night side, doesn't matter. For them there's no "day" or "night" as far as a planet is concerned unless they need to go to a very specific location. I didn't get that the flowers grow in only one place. This should have been caught and fixed before it ever made it past scripting.

 

[Nelson Au]

Sam, it will be interesting how your kids receive Star Trek 4 The Voyage Home and see Spock's recovery.

Howie, I would think that the issue of only finding the plant on one area of the planet has to be for two reasons; scientically, I'd bet they'd want to be sure they gather the same plants in the same area to be sure they control the experiment. And second, on Earth, I think there are regions where plants of specific varieties can only grow. I think it makes sense they get the exact same plants from the exact same place that affected the transporter.

I had fun the other evening and watched Macrocosm, it was a favorite episode. In the same vein as Starship Mine, but to me, its Janeway as Ripley. I always liked this episode as it's a fun one and we get to see that Ripley homage. Even though I know everyone involved didn't intend that. And Kate Mulgrew, while seems happy with the result, didn't want to do this kind of Janeway. On this viewing, it really feels like an Alien homage. Alien life form infects a crew member and then proceeds to take over the crew of the ship and only one person is left to take it out.

 

[KPmusmag]

I had fun the other evening and watched Macrocosm, it was a favorite episode. In the same vein as Starship Mine, but to me, its Janeway as Ripley. I always liked this episode as it's a fun one and we get to see that Ripley homage. Even though I know everyone involved didn't intend that. And Kate Mulgrew, while seems happy with the result, didn't want to do this kind of Janeway. On this viewing, it really feels like an Alien homage. Alien life form infects a crew member and then proceeds to take over the crew of the ship and only one person is left to take it out.

Macrocosm is one of my favorite Voyager episodes, and I like that the viruses are seen again in Shattered (S7 E11), another good one and an inventive story, IMO.

 

[Jason_V]

"Macrocosm" was a change of pace for Voyager and Trek. They didn't do all out action stories very often, especially one with very limited main cast participation and a CG alien. It's sandwiched in the middle of some "okay" Voyager episodes and outside of sweeps (IIRC).

For me, you have to see the captain get down and dirty every once in a while. They've all done it, and that's a good thing. Even if you are an intellectual, a diplomat or a builder, you still need to get into scrapes every once in a while. Besides, Janeway was trying to get her ship back. That's what any captain would do.

 

[Nelson Au]

I've been trying to fit in viewings of TOS too as part of my attempt at re-viewing TOS as part of the 50th Anniversary last September. I got sidetracked. I did watch several recently including A Taste of Armageddon, Devil in the Dark and last night Errand of Mercy. One of the all time great episodes and with the great John Colico as Kor. Who else can say veg-i-table like him! It's been great fun to re-view with the original effects on the blu rays. The; "It would have been glorious" fade out is intact. . For some reason, this time viewing, the Organians seemed even more mysterious and powerful. I doubt there is an error in the blu ray and they mistakenly used the CGI enhanced sequence when Ayelborne and Claymare transform into their real formless selves. What I noticed that I don't think I noticed before was they used a purple light on the actors to give them a glow that's very subtle. And it was very cool!

Amok Time and the second season premieres on September 15, 1967. Maybe I can still finish off the first season in time and watch Amok Time on the premiere date.

 

[Carabimero]

After seeing WOK in the theater, I am going back to TOS. Haven't seen it in a while. Always have to decide whether to watch TOS or TOS-R. I find myself watching TOS-R though I am bothered by the early dissolves and things.

 

[Carabimero]

I'm traveling and can't watch my BDs of TOS. I just watched OBSESSION on Netflix and was surprised that it was the ORIGINAL version with original effects. I wonder if other TOS episodes on Netflix also have original effects. Every Netflix episode of TOS I have seen had remastered effects until OBSESSION.

 

[Nelson Au]

Guys, when this thread was well into hundreds of pages, it was mostly me and Fan Collector and Scott Atwell discussing TOS along with the trivia. One of the things we used to discuss was what new things we may have discovered while watching a TOS episode.

Well, as I continue rewatching TOS as part of the 50th Anniversary, I'm watching in broadcast order and with original effects as I mentioned above. As it was September 15th yesterday, I celebrated the start of the second season and watched Amok Time last night. As many times as I've seen it, it was so what refreshing to see with the original effects. I figured I'd miss seeing the CGI Vulcan city in the background based on the TAS episode. But I was into the story. I was into seeing the actors fresh into the second season looking in their prime.

What surprised me, amd we had discussed this before, was how conniving T'Pring was. What surprised me was in watching Nimoy as Spock give the speech to Stonn and to T'Pring. His 'Having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting' had a different tone to me. In the past I always saw it as a philosophical comment or observation of human behavior he saw and found was a truth. But this time, I saw it as a somewhat angry Spock who just killed his friend over this terrible woman. And this terrible woman wanted another guy. So Spock is telling Stonn , watch out for this one. She'll destroy you as she destroyed me. Perhaps it's not that layered, maybe Nimoy had that in his head, we'll never know. Then later when Spock discovers Kirk and really alive, his joy has more weight for me and it was a deeper emotional response then I'd ever felt it was. This is a pretty small observation and I might be reading more into it then there was. But it seemed significant this time. The beauty of art is we can interpret it and reinterpret it.

As for Voyager, I've watched a few more episodes, The Q and the Gray and the two parter Future's End. Q and Janeway together was a fun premise and Mulgrew and DeLancie played well together. I was amused by Janeway saying, that's it? You had your chance! And it's always funny, as I work in Silicon Valley in high tech, to learn that the computer revolution was the result of a crashed ship from the future.

At any rate, I had quite a revelation watching Amok Time. That's fun when that happens.

 

[Sam Favate]

Has anyone read Shanter's book "Leonard"? I just finished it. It was a nice book, full of funny stories and some touching stories too. I have two questions: How accurate do you think the portrait of the relationship between Shanter and Nimoy is? And what do you think the rift between them was at the end of Nimoy's life? Shatner claims not to know, and he interviewed Adam Nimoy for the book. Maybe Nimoy's wife Susan knows?

In any case, it was a very pleasant book.

My kids requested a Voyager episode today. We watched "Drone" from the 5th season, one of the only Voyager single episodes I can claim I like. (But wouldn't Voyager have inadvertently given the Borg defenses to 29th century tech by attacking them with the modifications One made? Wouldn't the Borg have been able to adapt instantly? And wouldn't that knowledge have been shared throughout the collective before the sphere was destroyed?)

Tomorrow we're showing them The Voyage Home on the big screen. After talking them this summer to the Dolphin Research Center in Grassy Key, Florida, where they played with the dolphins, I am confident they will love "the one with the whales."

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Has anyone read Shanter's book "Leonard"? I just finished it. It was a nice book, full of funny stories and some touching stories too. I have two questions: How accurate do you think the portrait of the relationship between Shanter and Nimoy is? And what do you think the rift between them was at the end of Nimoy's life? Shatner claims not to know, and he interviewed Adam Nimoy for the book. Maybe Nimoy's wife Susan knows?

I read the book - I've read all of Shatner's Trek books as well as his non-Trek autobiography. I always love his "writing" (I understand that these are mostly written by dictating and having the thoughts typed out and organized by his co-writer, but still, it's clearly in Shatner's voice).

I think the portrayal of their relationship in the book is pretty accurate. I've read Nimoy's books too (written in the 1990s) and Nimoy would speak fondly of Shatner in them.

If you take another look at "Leonard", I do think Shatner explains the rift, I just think it meant different things to the two men. Some backstory that may or may not be in the book (I can't remember clearly), but Nimoy had been diagnosed with COPD in the late 2000s and it impaired his lifestyle significantly. Breathing became difficult, and mobility issues followed. Nimoy was unable to do most personal appearances, and I can imagine that having a disease like that must be extraordinarily frustrating, in addition to whatever pain and discomfort come with the territory. Nimoy was an active guy who had quit smoking decades beforehand; it must have seemed cruel to be stricken with this illness. As I recall, they were both scheduled to attend this convention together, and whether or not it was billed that way, there was a good chance that it might have been Nimoy's final (or one of his final) in-person appearances. Around the same time, Shatner was putting together his documentary on "The Captains" and asked for Nimoy's involvement. Nimoy wanted to be featured in the documentary in an equal role to Shatner, Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew and Pine, taking the not-unreasonable point of view that Spock had been a Captain since Star Trek II (or, for about thirty years at that point), and not merely for a cameo. Shatner apparently asked for permission to film Nimoy's appearance at the convention to use in the film, and Nimoy asked him not to. I think there may have been some concern on Nimoy's part that physically he wasn't feeling at his best, and wasn't sure that he wanted that to be used in a documentary for posterity. There may have also been a feeling of "this is a special moment for people at the convention, it's not meant to be for a film". Whatever the reason, Nimoy said no. Shatner, apparently thinking that Nimoy was merely joking or perhaps just in a temporary bad mood but not seriously declining to participate, sent a cameraman into the auditorium. Nimoy apparently felt blindsighted by this and was pissed.

Now, we don't know exactly why Nimoy was pissed. Was it simply because he said "no" and his wishes were ignored? Did he feel vulnerable because of his physical condition and prefer not to appear on camera that way? Was he upset that he was trying to have a special moment with fans and didn't want it to be used in a film that wasn't really about him? Some combination of the above? I think he got annoyed, and when Shatner didn't immediately understand the issue, Nimoy just reached a breaking point. Sometimes friendships are like that, where you deeply care about the other person, but they drive you crazy. Maybe Nimoy decided, that with limited time remaining, he didn't want to deal with this stuff. Maybe he figured that Shatner would finally get it and knock on his door to apologize. Maybe it caused him to reflect back on their long friendship and other things that may have happened in the past, and caused him to wonder, "Is this guy really my friend?" I don't think we'll ever know. But I think that's the source of it. Shatner in the book is dismissive that that could have been the reason, but I wonder if it was Shatner's very dismissiveness that made Nimoy throw in the towel and say "this guy just doesn't get it, and there's nothing I can do that will make him get it."