Rap is 25, and its best days are past? (1 Viewer)

[Mike Broadman]

I got Black Elvis coming in the mail. Can't wait to hear it.

I need to get some more, but they don't sell all this stuff you guys are talking about in big record stores.

 

[Mark Murphy]

Its nice to see a real conversation about hip hop, whether we agree or disagree. I respect and appreciate everyone's input concerning my post. I grew up with Hip Hop. To me, it was more than just the music. It was a culture and it was esoteric. I think I've become more disenchanted with the culture than the music itself.




How many true artists actually attain commercial success? Looking at my list, not many actually sold that many records. PE, Erick Sermon, KRS-1 and ATCQ later on in their careers maybe. I remember Q-Tip saying he was still sleeping on his mother's couch between the Low End Theory and Midnite Marauders. In my opinion, commercial success doesn't prove anything.

David,
I'm not familiar with all the artists on your list, but I will make it a point to check them out. The one's I do know are Ghostface, Del, Ludacris and to a degree, MF Doom (from KMD, a very underated group IMO, Peachfuzz is one my all time favorites). Ludacris works for me in the club because he does bring that Party attitude but he's nothing more than an average MC. Ghostface is one of may all time favorites (as is most of Wu Tang). I always thought of him a gimmick rapper when Wu first dropped because he always covered his face and his lyrics were sub par on Enter the 36 Chambers. I did a double take on Only Built for Cuban Links (the best post 36 Chambers release IMO) because he ripped it and has ever since. I listened to Del early on, as well the Pharcyde and Souls of Mischief and thought they were great. That Northern California sound was a nice break from the original Gangsta rap coming from LA at the time.

 

[David_Stein]

i knew when making my list that ludacris was the weakest link on the list, but i really think that he is pigeonholed due to his style, a lot like how a lot of people dismissed tupac and biggie as ganster rappers when they were alive. certainly he is from Atlanta and by listening to the beat of any track hes on its very easy to tell where hes from.

and he does focus on having a lot of money as well (but so does jay-z, because thats what people want ot hear), but what i really think is his strong suit is that he doesnt really take himself seriously and is honestly funny. rappers/entertainers like nelly and 50 cent still take themselves way too seriously, they may toss in a funny insult here or there, but nothing like luda does.

for evidence of his worthyness, i submit the track Coming 2 America from Word of Mouf. the actual song you will have to obtain by other means, but here are some lyrics:
Coming 2 America

plus hes a very animated rapper with respect to his voice and thats something that is missing from a lot of rappers.

so i can understand why you dont like him, but i think hes just misunderstood. for what its worth i thought a lot about putting outkast one the list instead (but they are waaaay to obsessed with just making pop hits, see: hey ya) and then i was going to put the living legends on instead, but they are just too big to consider one group and i couldnt narrow it down to a subset of the living legends that i wanted, what i will say is that their album from 2000, Angelz with dirty faces, is an album i could listen to almost constantly and not get tired of it, and the one song, One-Two, is one of the few songs i know all the words to.

 

[Matthew-K]

Sorry..playing devils advocate here. I don't mind some of the old rap groups like beastie boys and run DMC, but this new "gangsta" rap has no point. My opinion of course. When I was a teenager these groups were pretty good, but with age comes an appreciation for real musicianship and songwriting ability. It seems that you don't have to have a good singing voice or a special talent to be a rap artist, just "sample" a classic pop/rock hit and rap over it. I just don't relate to the new rap that is out today. To each his own of course. I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[David_Stein]

ganster rap is so mid90s. if you are going to attack a music style you dont like, you might at least want to make the insult current.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Yeah, this new near-20 yr old gangsta rap.

And of course all rap is gangsta.:rolleyes

 

[Zen Butler]

Raekwon, the Chef, eats him up. Method Man, out of the gates was sick, but has thinned a bit, repeating himself.

 

[Mark Murphy]

David,
I think you are absolutely right on about Ludacris. Thats why I mentioned I liked his music when I'm at a club because it is fun, humerous music. I don't want to hear serious thought provoking songs when I'm trying to unwind, have a good time, dance, etc. As far as Jay Z and money, its what he's been about since day one so more power to him. "Dead Presidents pt 2" is still my favorite song by him.

In my opinion, the best era for hip hop was from 1987-1995. There were so many great acts, hall of fame caliber in the rap game. Rappers made great albums, not just singles. My favorites:

Low End Theory- Tribe
Midnite Marauders-Tribe
Paid in Full-Eric B. & Rakim
Follow the Leader-Eric B. & Rakim
By Any Means Necessary-Boogie Down Productions
It Takes a Nation....-Public Enemy
Strictly Business-EPMD
The Great Adventures of Slick Rick
Eyes on This-MC Lyte
Straight out of Compton-NWA
Music to Driveby-CMW
No One Can Do It Better-D.O.C.
The Chronic-Dr. Dre
Enter the 36 Chambers-Wu-Tang Clan
Breaking Atoms-Main Source
Illmatic-Nas
Only Built for Cuban Links-Raekwon
Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik-Outkast
The Infamous-Mobb Deep
Liquid Swordz-GZA
Amerikkka's Most Wanted-Ice Cube
Sex Packets-Digital Underground
Bizzaare Ride II the Pharcyde
Here Come the Lords-Lords of the Underground
One for All-Brand Nubian
Step in the Arena-Gangstarr
Daily Operation-Gangstarr
Its a Big Daddy Thing-Big Daddy Kane
Ready To Die-Biggie
Wanted Dead of Alive-Kool G Rap & DJ Polo
The Cactus Album-3rd Bass
Enta Da Stage-Black Moon

I'm sure there are more that I left out but its a long list to begin with. I'd much rather sit and listen to any of those albums than 50 Cent, Nelly or Lil Jon and the Eastside Boys w/the Ying Yang Twins and whoever else they decide to drag out w/their ugly pimp goblets.

 

[chung_sotheby]

Hey, has everyone forgot about how truly inflential The Pharcyde was? Way, way, WAY ahead of their time, since I believe Bizzare Ryde 2... was released over 10 years ago. Go listen to Bizzare or Labcabin again, and I bet that if either were released today they would challege OutKast for hip-hop album of the year.



David, they are a pretty sick group of mixmasters and MC's. Lyrics Born's last album is pretty nice, you should definately check it out. However, given that they are more introspective and conscious than most of today's rap, Ithink they might be pigeonholed into the "too-ssoft-to-rap" category that plagued De La Soul. They make amazing music, though

Mark,
Suprising to me that you haven't mentioned AkroBatik, who I think is one of the better lyricists to come out lately, and he's from your backyard. Still needs a little more fine-tuning of his delivery, but has a hell of a voice and flow with his words.

Overall, I thought the article was very insightful, though a bit rushed. Someone brought up the great point that it is almost impossible to cram 25 years into one article, but I thought that the effort was commendable. Although I fell that Eminem is pretty goddamn amazing, I believe that his "revolutionary" style and substance would never have been realized unless he had the backing of Dr Dre as well as an "MTV-friendly" aesthetic. I think that it might be time for someone to blow the hinges off the door and bring the whole "Hip-Pop" house down, much like Nirvana did to rock in the early 90's.

 

[Zen Butler]

Bro, I'd have to add

Warren G-Regulate (wouldn't have been 93 without this one). If Warren would've simply stuck to producing, I think we speak of him in the same breath as Timbaland, Dre, Neptunes etc. Regulate was one smooth album, start to finish.


Nas-Illmatic


Don't want to forget The Fugees either

 

[JasonK]

We've talked about this album before Ange, and I just can't get into it the way I can his other albums. I've tried, but some of the tracks work for me and others just don't.

And how has a thread with Kool Keith gone on for so long without mentioning:

Oh shit! There's a horse in the hospital!

 

[Mark Murphy]

Boston MC's get no love, do they? Maybe its because its a Rock 'n roll town. Maybe its the garbage we put out (Ed OG. and Ray "Benzino" Scott). It might also be because its not southern crunk pimp goblet bullshit so no one wants to promote it. Maybe Ja rule will go back to making love songs w/Ashanti so we don't have to listen to Lil Jon.

 

[Zen Butler]

GZA is in a league of his own. That man spits sick sh*t. I can respect your view on Ghostface's solo career being more consistent than Raekwon's even if I don't agree. I was basing my opinion on Raekwon's flows within the Wu-Tang library. I was listening to the Ghostdog soundtrack, the cut "Cakes", RZA does some out there rhymes sometimes.

I'm sickened (I didn't mention it either) that RZA wasn't mentioned in that list of producers. Some of the most beautiful music I have ever heard.


MILESTONE: Can we hit 3 pages without the ignorance entering this thread? I'm ver impressed

 

[Mark Murphy]

Zen,
You are 100% right about the RZA. His production, especially on the earlier Wu-Tang and Wu solo tracks are insane. I don't care much for his lyrical ablities, or lack thereof, but he is one of the best ever on the boards. Premier and Havoc are two of my favorites and very underated. Listen to Mobb Deep's "The Infamous" and anything from Gangstarr, great pure hip hop production. I can't forget Pete Rock, either.

 

[JasonK]

You and me both Zen! That would be some type of record for a rap thread at the HTF, I'm confident it can be done!

 

[Mark Murphy]

Now that we're discussing the RZA/Wu-Tang....has anyone heard RZA's (Prince Rakeem) or GZA's (The Genious) pre Wu-Tang debuts?

 

[Mark Murphy]

Thats right, I forgot to add Stetsasonic to my list. I am impressed with the level of this discussion and I hope it continues w/out any ignorant interuptions. Keep it coming!

 

[Carl Miller]

I'm late to the thread as always but figured I'd toss in my thoughts.

The trouble with rap today is the same problem that exists in all popular music genres. The music industry looks for one big thing, and then attempts to clone it 20 times over. The easy to find and easily accessible music you have at your fingertips as a result of this is cookie cutter copycat crap.

I liked rap in late 80's and early 90's because it was varied and diverse in style, sound and even attitude.

EPMD, PE, Eric B and Rakim, Das Efx, De La Soul to name a few of the easily accessible but very diverse rap artists out at the same time. Commercially successful, but without the stigma of being sell outs. Each had their own lyrical focus, their own distinct style of rap, distinct attitude etc.

At this time, and it was the same with rock and roll at one point, the music industry wasn't looking for the next big thing, it was looking for many big things. As a result, you had variation and vibrancy within the genre.

Today, it's just not the same. You have a music industry which latches on to a big thing and clones it over and over. How many acts do the Neptunes have to slap the same repetetive sound to before something different is produced? 10? 20?

To me, there is still decent rap music out there to be listened to, but it's far more difficult to find now because of the way the music industry as a whole operates. The record companies are an oligopoly. MTV is the primary outlet of musical discovery for far too many people. Image is first, music is second, etc, etc.

It's no different in rock and roll where bands like Good Charlotte spawn a slew of carbon copy bands so totally indistinct it's impossible to name any of them.

 

[Zen Butler]

The Ghost Dog: Way of the Samurai DVD special features is very telling of the genius of the RZA. I love the way Jim Jarmusch describes the RZA as some hip-hop form of Thelonius Monk. When viewing the film, zero in on RZA's score. It is an absolutely brilliant urban symphony. I hope his recognition doesn't stop here, he deserves much more.

 

[Mike Broadman]

I'm listening to Madvillain now for the first time, having picked it up based on the recommendations in this thread.

What a weird f***ing album...