RAINTREE COUNTY on Blu? (2 Viewers)

[usrunnr]

Well I'll add one more.

 

[battlebeast]

LOVE THIS!! Is that Her two Oscars plus Mike Todd's?

 

[RichMurphy]

LOVE THIS!! Is that Her two Oscars plus Mike Todd's?

I presumed the third is her 1992 Jean Hersholt Humanitarian award.

 

[battlebeast]

I presumed the third is her 1992 Jean Hersholt Humanitarian award.

Oh, that makes sense!

 

[Matt Hough]

I presumed the third is her 1992 Jean Hersholt Humanitarian award.

Correct!

 

[marcco00]

love to see her kicking back at home, and i forget that she is so little-- she barely taller than the tv!!!

 

[Irishman]

I remember reading on HTF some years ago about the showing of a good 35mm IB Technicolor print of Raintree County in the US and also of the showing
at a film festival in Germany of another equally good Technicolor dye-transfer print. As we all know the colour on these prints does not fade. Could we not make a request to Warner to get hold of one or other of these prints, scan it in 2k without any attempt at restoration bar cleaning the print and make Blu ray copies available for order on a burn-to-disc basis. I know that this would only give us the general release version and that the image quality would not be perfect. However, it would be better than nothing, which is what we have at the moment.
Could not those of us interested in having such copies not organise ourselves here on HTF and send funds to Warner to have this done.
Of course, this would not preclude Warner from undertaking a full restoration in the future. In the meantime, why let perfection be the enemy of the good?

 

[OliverK]

I remember reading on HTF some years ago about the showing of a good 35mm IB Technicolor print of Raintree County in the US and also of the showing
at a film festival in Germany of another equally good Technicolor dye-transfer print. As we all know the colour on these prints does not fade. Could we not make a request to Warner to get hold of one or other of these prints, scan it in 2k without any attempt at restoration bar cleaning the print and make Blu ray copies available for order on a burn-to-disc basis. I know that this would only give us the general release version and that the image quality would not be perfect. However, it would be better than nothing, which is what we have at the moment.
Could not those of us interested in having such copies not organise ourselves here on HTF and send funds to Warner to have this done.
Of course, this would not preclude Warner from undertaking a full restoration in the future. In the meantime, why let perfection be the enemy of the good?

To make a long story short this is not how Warner operates.

I like your release print idea but with todays technology we can also get decent results from those faded roadshow prints.

To get an idea have a look at this festival brochure here:

Programmheft des 3. 70mm Todd-AO Festivals

Das Programmheft des 3. 70mm Todd-AO Festivals im Schauburg-Cinerama Filmtheater Karlsruhe

issuu.com

You will see frames of both El Cid and Ben-Hur in it that look quite nice even though the prints that they came from looked completely faded with hardly any color left.

So my money would be on scanning those roadshow prints in 4K before they lose their remaining color and maybe at some point when Warner does things differently we will get an advance release of the roadshow version with minimal cleanup, that should be a low-cost proposition and they will want to scan those prints anyway, just in case. The faded prints should also be sharper than IBTech prints.

Until then everybody will be at the mercy of TCM streaming that old HD master or catching one of the very rare 35mm screenings.

 

[Irishman]

To make a long story short this is not how Warner operates.

I like your release print idea but with todays technology we can also get decent results from those faded roadshow prints.

To get an idea have a look at this festival brochure here:

Programmheft des 3. 70mm Todd-AO Festivals

Das Programmheft des 3. 70mm Todd-AO Festivals im Schauburg-Cinerama Filmtheater Karlsruhe

issuu.com

You will see frames of both El Cid and Ben-Hur in it that look quite even though the prints that they came from looked completely faded with hardly any color left.

So my money would be on scanning those roadshow prints in 4K before they lose their remaining color and maybe at some point when Warner does things differently we will get an advance release of the roadshow version with minimal cleanup, that should be a low-cost proposition and they will want to scan those prints anyway, just in case. The faded prints should also be sharper than IBTech prints.

Until then everybody will be at the mercy of TCM streaming that old HD master or catching one of the very rare 35mm screenings.

 

[Irishman]

Thank you for that most informative reply.
I wonder if authorisation could be given by Warner to make a no frills bluray for sale from the recording derived from the old HD master (1080i ?) that TCM uses. This would still have better image quality than the official WB Region 2 PAL Spanish DVD release, El Arbol de la Vida, (with English soundtrack) available from Amazon in Europe.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Thank you for that most informative reply.
I wonder if authorisation could be given by Warner to make a no frills bluray for sale from the recording derived from the old HD master (1080i ?) that TCM uses. This would still have better image quality than the official WB Region 2 PAL Spanish DVD release, El Arbol de la Vida, (with English soundtrack) available from Amazon in Europe.

If a Blu-ray release can’t be done right then Warner will not released it. It’s been their policy.

 

[RolandL]

To make a long story short this is not how Warner operates.

I like your release print idea but with todays technology we can also get decent results from those faded roadshow prints.

To get an idea have a look at this festival brochure here:

Programmheft des 3. 70mm Todd-AO Festivals

Das Programmheft des 3. 70mm Todd-AO Festivals im Schauburg-Cinerama Filmtheater Karlsruhe

issuu.com

You will see frames of both El Cid and Ben-Hur in it that look quite nice even though the prints that they came from looked completely faded with hardly any color left.

So my money would be on scanning those roadshow prints in 4K before they lose their remaining color and maybe at some point when Warner does things differently we will get an advance release of the roadshow version with minimal cleanup, that should be a low-cost proposition and they will want to scan those prints anyway, just in case. The faded prints should also be sharper than IBTech prints.

Until then everybody will be at the mercy of TCM streaming that old HD master or catching one of the very rare 35mm screenings.

They only need to scan the 15 minutes of missing footage on the 35mm prints. Then scan the full 65mm negative. Not a huge difference between 2.35 and 2.76 (about 15%). There's a bigger difference when some movies have Imax scenes (1.9) and scope (2.35) and nobody complains about it. I kind of like it when I see missing scenes and the quality is not as good as now I know which scenes were removed from the roadshow.

 

[battlebeast]

“I knew he was gay, probably more than he did. Which is extraordinary because I was only about sixteen, and I really didn’t know anything about it. I turned seventeen during the filming of the movie. I really didn’t know what being a homosexual was. But I just knew…I don’t know how I knew, but I knew. And I was totally alright with it.” -Elizabeth Taylor recalling the beginning of her close friendship with Montgomery Clift during production of the Paramount Pictures/George Stevens drama A Place in the Sun in 1949 (the movie wasn’t released until 1951).

“You know how it is when you love somebody terribly but you can’t describe why? That’s how I love Bessie Mae.” -Montgomery Clift on his friendship with Elizabeth Taylor, whom he affectionately nicknamed Bessie Mae.

Pictured together on the set of the 1957 MGM drama Raintree County, Elizabeth and Monty’s friendship lasted from 1949 until his death at age 45 in 1966. Always protective of Clift, who was emotionally fragile and often deeply troubled, Elizabeth’s actions following a serious car accident he had after leaving her house on the night of May 12th, 1956 speaks volumes about how close they were. Racing on foot down the dark winding road to the crash scene, Elizabeth climbed inside the wreck where she found Monty trapped beneath the steering wheel, his face mangled and gasping for breath. Without a moment’s hesitation, she reached down his throat and pulled out a dislodged tooth trapped in his windpipe, enabling him to breathe. Cradling his head in her lap while they waited for the ambulance to arrive, the Hollywood paparazzi descended upon the car with their cameras flashing. Incandescent with rage at their intrusiveness, Elizabeth began screaming at them, swearing like a sailor while she threatened their livelihood. “Goddamned vultures!”, she shrieked. “If you bastards take one more picture, I’ll make sure none of you pricks ever work in this fucking town again!” Shocked by her language and chastened by her words, they immediately retreated, observing the scene from a respectful distance with their cameras down as Monty was removed from the car. When Clift died ten years later, Elizabeth paid for his funeral and stated during a television interview on the set of The Taming of the Shrew in Italy: “It’s very difficult for me at the time to speak coherently about Montgomery Clift because he was my dearest friend. It’s difficult for me now, this soon, to be intelligible about his qualities as a friend and as an actor. I can only say that he was certainly the most sensitive and intelligent actor that I have ever worked with. And as a friend, I will miss him very much. I don’t know what else to say…”

It should be noted that Elizabeth Taylor later co-founded the AIDS/HIV charity amfAR in the 1980s following the death of her friend Rock Hudson from AIDS in 1985. Frustrated that 100% of the proceeds raised by amfAR weren’t going to research and assistance, she officially ended her associated with the organization and took her commitment to the gay community even further, founding her own Elizabeth Taylor Aids Foundation in 1991. Elizabeth bequeathed a large portion of the $115.9 million raised at the Christie’s auction of her jewels following her death in 2011 to her charity, ensuring the continued care of those afflicted with AIDS/HIV in perpetuity. “All of my life I’ve spent a lot of time with gay men”, she said not long before she died. “Montgomery Clift, Jimmy Dean, Rock Hudson - who are my colleagues, coworkers, confidantes, my closest friends, but I never thought of who they slept with! They were just the people I loved. I could never understand why they couldn’t be afforded the same rights and protections as all of the rest of us. There is no gay agenda, it’s a human agenda.” Elizabeth Taylor - THINGS OF THE PAST, FACEBOOK

 

[Matt Hough]

I believe Elizabeth saw to it that Monty was cast in Suddenly, Last Summer and I know she insisted he play her husband in Reflections in a Golden Eye. Of course, he died before filming began on it and was replaced by Marlon Brando.

 

[ahollis]

I am amazed at how many people think they know more than WB on how to restore a movie. Warners are the experts in the field.

 

[OliverK]

They only need to scan the 15 minutes of missing footage on the 35mm prints. Then scan the full 65mm negative. Not a huge difference between 2.35 and 2.76 (about 15%). There's a bigger difference when some movies have Imax scenes (1.9) and scope (2.35) and nobody complains about it. I kind of like it when I see missing scenes and the quality is not as good as now I know which scenes were removed from the roadshow.

I mentioned a scan of the complete print as it could result in a relatively low cost release of the roadshow version without having to tackle the 65mm elements. Later down the road they could release a no holds barred version derived from the best 35 and 65mm elements and I agree that it would be pretty interesting to see which scenes were exclusive to the roadshow.

 

[OliverK]

Thank you for that most informative reply.
I wonder if authorisation could be given by Warner to make a no frills bluray for sale from the recording derived from the old HD master (1080i ?) that TCM uses. This would still have better image quality than the official WB Region 2 PAL Spanish DVD release, El Arbol de la Vida, (with English soundtrack) available from Amazon in Europe.

They could of course do it but why now? Up until 2010 not too many would have complained about the quality but today it would be an issue.

That would be a pretty modest 1080i release that would be slightly better than The Greatest Story Ever Told or Fall of the Roman Empire but not by much and it would be a far cry from the kind of quality that the Warner Archive has been releasing lately.

 

[Vern Dias]

They could of course do it but why now? Up until 2010 not too many would have complained about the quality but today it would be an issue.

That would be a pretty modest 1080i release that would be slightly better than The Greatest Story Ever Told or Fall of the Roman Empire but not by much and it would be a far cry from the kind of quality that the Warner Archive has been releasing lately.

Many years ago, I recorded this from TCM on DirecTV. I suspect the old HD master may be quite a bit better than many here think.

I'm pretty sure the old master was progressive, as a simple IVTC was the only processing required.

 

[OliverK]

Many years ago, I recorded this from TCM on DirecTV. I suspect the old HD master may be quite a bit better than many here think.

View attachment 147987

I'm pretty sure the old master was progressive, as a simple IVTC was the only processing required.

I did not want to go into too much detail but in scenes with high frequency information there were some very bad combing artefacts in motion when it was available on FilmStruck for a while so it clearly was an interlaced master and George Feltenstein has confirmed this.

If there were no artefacts of that kind with the TCM showing I would up my rating but those artefacts were pretty jarring when I saw it on FilmStruck.

 

[Robert Harris]

The problem with that is that Warner’s company policy doesn’t allow them to work with outside vendors for restoration/preservation work. They must work with MPI, the company’s in-house facility, and the cost of work at MPI tends to be significantly higher than working with third party contractors. Brothers Grimm was an exception solely because Strohmeier and March had an ownership stake in the film through Cinerama, which owns half of that production. That also meant that those two gentlemen did their work far below market rate because of their personal interest in having the film be restored and made readily available.

It’s the same issue with their vintage 3D holdings. Warner apparently spent $300,000 on their House Of Wax restoration; the 3D Film Archive says that they could have done the same work for ten times less than that. But Warner’s corporate policy won’t allow them to seek outside vendors for that kind of work.

At the end of the day, unfortunately, the only number that matters is what it costs MPI to do the work, because that is the only facility Warner Archive can use. The company as a whole would need to change policy for Warner Archive to be able to explore relationships with other vendors.

Your numbers are way off. 3DFA does not have the magic elixir, and let’s be certain that we’re referring to the precise same quality parameters.

Run just a picture budget.

Begin with a proper and full inspection of all elements, which in the case of HoW is probably 54 rolls of masters, plus main & ends.

Next, scan those 54+ rolls at 4k.

Now you have a beginning.

A incredibly fair cost today for inspection, scan, color, minimal basic clean-up, etc of a 90 minute film with zero problems from a single element, is $30,000.

3D in no way affects an equation of cost other than to more than double it.

MPI creates a very workable budgetary atmosphere, and is not the problem. They can be very competitive, while delivering an extremely professional final product.

And why move film elements around town, or further, without a very good reason?

If you’d like to discuss Raintree — who can scan 65mm? It’s a very short list.