Please help me clear things up! (1 Viewer)

[Stephen Hopkins]

Some guys who live down the hall from me have the onkyo speaker package and a panasonic he100 receiver. The purchased it mainly for video games and occasional movies, and for that purpose and their budget, it's pretty much the best they could do. I calibrated it for them, and the most disappointing aspect of the speaker system was the sub. It sounded extremely boomy and muffled. The speakers weren't anything to shout about, but for the price, they were as expected.

For you guys, I would also recommend the JBL NSP1 package. Pick one up online for around $250 shipped. Then, add a pair of N28 ($130 at J&R, free shipping) or N38 mains (around $250 shipped online), shifting the extra N24s from the NSP1 package to the back for a 7.1 speaker setup. For the subwoofer, go w/ the sony sa-wm40 (around $170 shipped online). This is the setup i'm currently using (except a different sub) with my denon 1803 and i'm very happy with it.

If you do go with the sa-wm40 sub, $5 worth of polyifill will make it sound as good as any other commercial sub for under $400. It will really tighten up the bass and add a little more extension.

The NSP1 package, N28 mains, and sa-wm40 sub would run you a total of around $550. The only reason i would consider the N38s over the N28s for mains is if you listen to a large percentage (over 40%) of music. They would make 2ch music w/out the sub much more enjoyable, but the N28s do a great job, even without the sub.

I will agree that the Denon remote is absolutely horrible. The multiple sliders are one of the worst concepts ever. My roommates are baffled by it and have reverted to using a different remote for each component. I hope to pick up an older Pronto remote around Christmas and toss the denon remote back in the box.

Hope this helps, and if you have anymore questions about the Denon 1803, the JBL speakers, or anything else, feel free to email me and ask.

 

[Debbie K]

Wow! Thank you all for your suggestions. We have until Saturday to return the Onkyo speakers to Circuit City for a full refund, NO restocking fee. They'll go back either Thursday or Friday and we'll use the TV's speakers until we get something decent. I remember seeing it mentioned that we wouldn't really save much by buying the package deal. So at this time, we are contemplating just getting the N-Center, and possibly the two sets of different N's, possibly the N28's and the N24's.
..............
My biggest compliment though is for the responses Debbie and I received from the crowd here. Unlike some un-named boards, we were not told if ya ain't rich what are ya bothering us for. Everyone here treats others with respect and realizes that everyone has to start somewhere, and maybe everyone doesn't have a fortune, but still deserves some enjoyment in life. We appreciate that, thank you. We'll keep you all updated on what we get and how they work out. As Debbie is totally into reseaching everything first, it will probably be at least a couple of weeks :frowning: . As for the crowd here .... definitely a

 

[Robert_Gaither]

Another sub to also consider is the AudioSource SW15 (I'd advise stuffing this also and add spikes) which can periodically be bought at Amazon with free shipping for about $200. What might be even better (though you might have to be very patient and very lucky) is to buy a used SVS, HSU, or Adire (Rava) sub to match up with your speakers.

Concerning small speakers, a well designed small speaker can have a very good mids and highs if they are built correctly (Thiele and Small parameters, or T/S for short, are statistics rating a driver's characteristics and performance when given an input signal and using these to build an appropriate cabinet and x-over to meet a designed goal) but you shouldn't expect any deep mid bass or lower (anything under 60 hz). The main concern to me, imho, is to buy speakers that will reach near the x-over point of your AVR's bass management (for example Denon's is about 80 hz and the Onkyo should be in the ballpark and luckily some are even adjustable, most AVRs the x-over isn't a true brick-wall so there will be a slight bleeding of frequencies above an below) so my advice is to try to get speakers that reach down to about 90 hz flat so they will blend with a sub and get a sub that plays from 90 hz to as low/loud as you want flat (meaning with a least amount of deviant peaks, most cheap subs have a peak in the 40-80 hz harmonic overtones region to fool the inexperienced into believing that it produces deep bass). I'd advise over buying the sub since you can always turn it down but some of the wimpy subs can't be turned up due to distortion.

 

[Greg Kolinski]

LOL ,thats one thing I like about Circut City,their policy of taking stuff back ,just because you dont like it. I did that with my Onkyo 600 due to the speaker OHM problem and got an HK 520,and talked em down $150 off the price ,with just some printed prices off the internet

 

[Miklsan K]

Debbie K/Husband, One other option: It sounds like you purchased the speakers at Circuit City. If you did, remember they have a one year speaker trade up policy. If money is tight now, you can make due for a while, and then trade the Onkyos in for full credit towards an upgrade. Not bad. By the way, as Stephen pointed out above, I think those Onkyo speakers sound reasonably decent for the money. Where else can you get five "real" speakers and a powered sub for $250?

 

[Ted Lee]

everyone's already given great advice, so i'll just add another option you may want to consider.
upgrade your speakers one by one
you can buy yourself a decent pair of mains first, then get the center, then the rears and finally...a sub.
yes, you will not have all the speakers at once, but you may be happier in the long run. speakers rarely change in design or technology so you'll probably be happy with the same pair of speakers 10 or even 15 years from now.
debbie already mentioned that she really liked the sound of the klipsch center....i guess you just have to decide if it's "worth the wait".
just another option...good luck with whatever your decision is and welcome to our world. now leave before it's too late!

 

[Debbie K]

Debbie's husband again. Everyone has given great advice, and we thank you all for that. It has been quite a learning experience. I think we have it finally resolved, and perhaps ended up with better speakers as a result, and found the reason for the muffled voice. We are now running the Denon 1803, happy with it except for its extremely poorly designed remote. Debbie does want to try a Yamaha RX-V630 though, probably do that today. On the speakers, we have settled on the JBL's. We have and are happy with the N-Center II, N38 II towers for fronts, and the N24 II surrounds. Although we have read some reports about poor shielding, we are experiencing no onscreen discoloration, and imagine they've either previously resolved the problem, or did so with the II series. I expect to pick up the Sony sa-wm40 sub-woofer today. We picked up all but the sub and N-Center last night, after returning the Onkyo's for a full refund to Circuit City one day before the 30 day return period ended, and were happy with the sound last night. The N-Center we've had for a few days experimenting with it prior to deciding on the accompanying speakers.
.......
As for the main complaint Debbie had, a co-worker came up with the reason. We thought we had ALL DSP turned off ... we didn't. The 5 channel stereo is still a DSP mode, as TV broadcasts do not have a center voice channel. They are only in stereo, left and right channels. So to bring the TV sound to the center channel, we were using DSP which matrixed the stereo into a center channel ... a bit muffled, but a center channel. Ergo the reason Debbie wants to try the Yamaha. She read that Yamaha was very strong in DSP and is curious as to how it would handle the matrixing of the stereo to the center channel. We'll determine which of the final two choices we prefer and return the other. We did try the Klipsch SC-1 in house over the past couple of days. Debbie preferred the JBL N-Center, and the Klipsch goes back today. Although the Klipsch sounded great in the store, with the proper acoustic tiles etc, it wasn't quite the same in our acoustically challenged living room.

 

[Parker Clack]

Neil and Debbie I wanted to jump in here and say to take the time to pick up the dB meter that others have suggested that you get from Radio Shack. At about $35 it is one of the best investments you will make in getting your speakers set up right for the room that you are in.

Parker

 

[Ted Lee]

...as TV broadcasts do not have a center voice channel. They are only in stereo, left and right channels...

sort of....
keep an eye out for shows that shows broadcast in dolby surround sound. for those types of shows, you can run your receiver in pro-logic mode and get a *dedicated* center and rear signal. (simpsons and x-files comes to mind. )
afaik, most popular shows are now broadcast in at least dolby surround, with a few even being broadcast in dolby digital.

 

[Debbie K]

Neil here again.
......
Parker, as a matter of fact, we picked that up this afternoon and will play with it tomorrow. By the time we got home, it was past dinnertime, and we wanted to plug in the subwoofer and try it out on The Sum Of All Fears. Good movie, good effects ... WOW!!!! great effects. Halfway through, we stopped it, mapped the connections on the back of the Denon on a printout I made from the pdf owners manual so we could reconnect it with a minimum of hassle. Then we replaced it with the Yamaha RX-V630. The Yamaha did seem to produce an even clearer, more legible voice track than the Denon, which was clearer than the Onkyo. We'll be playing with that for a few more days, and return whichever receiver loses the competition. The Yamaha is getting off to a strong start.
.....
Ted, good point on the watching for a show broadcast in Dolby, but we are on the basic version of Adelphia cable. I'm not sure, nor do I think, they would give that on their basic cable plan. Possibly on the digital plan, but we don't watch TV enough to pay the outrageous fees they charge for digital cable.

 

[Guy Usher]

IMO you will tire of all the DSP modes quickly, as time goes by I will bet you only use DD, Pro-logic, and stereo for musis (DTS as well).
If you want a real good reciever dont count out HK, even the 320 is great.
Again in my opinion the "OINK" you traded is superior to the Yamaha, Yamaha's tend to go a little over the top with all their sound fields, chips are cheap, makes you think you are getting more for your money. Concentrate only on the modes you actually listen to and find the reciever that does that best, second- keep in mind impedance, you want a reciever that is flexable enough to drive all the speakers you want in the future. An example is Paridigm a great inexpensive speaker that can be difficult for some recievers, I have seen some recievers shut down (high dollar ones, Sony ES, JVC) when paired up to paridigms.
I know you aren't looking at Paridigm speakers, my point is to get the most flexable, user friendly, best sounding (truth be known there is very little difference in sound from one reciever to the next)longest lasting reciever you can.

 

[Debbie K]

Neil again, and finally (just) signed up for my own account, but haven't gotten the notice yet. Guy, we weren't looking for many DSP modes, and will most likely use only a few ... other than playing with them once around to see what they sound like. What we were looking for though was a receiver that was strong enough in DSP processing to provide a clear center voice channel when watching regular cable TV and sending the sound to the receiver so that we could listen to a smoother sound than that put out by the TV's speakers. The Onkyo could not handle that. The Denon was a good bit clearer than the Onkyo. The Yamaha in turn outshines the Denon in this capacity. It has the clearest center channel in both watching TV and also in watching a DD DVD. Our personal preference is to be able to understand what is being said rather than be knocked out of our shoes by special effects. We live in an apartment, so we cannot, dare not, blast the system, nor use an earth-shaking subwoofer. We must keep the subwoofer low volume so that the low tones are heard, but not felt. Despite how everyone seems to feel about it, the Sony SA-WM20 that we tried last night actually suits our purposes. Today we are going to try the Yamaha YST-SW105. We know it gets really poor write-ups here, but it is enough to serve our needs and will only be played at minimum volume. If we ever move into a house of our own, which is doubtful living in California, we can go for the big bang with the newest state of the art at that time.
The Yamaha receiver, BTW, has something the other two didn't, which may be what you are referring to earlier. it has a switch that can be set to support either 8 ohm or 4 ohm speakers. The Onkyo warns not to use 4 ohm on its back, and their tech support said to definitely not plug in a 4 ohm speaker. Right now, the Yamaha does what WE want it to the best
I do thank you for your input though. Being new to this, we are taking every post into account. Today we will mess with the Radio Shack meter that we picked up yesterday. I love playing with new toys ... especially electronic ones.

 

[Parker Clack]

Neil:
Have you looked into getting something like the Outlaw 1050 receiver online? At $499 it is a steal. Since you are playing around with different receivers you may want to give the Outlaw a try. They have a very liberal return policy and are a great company to deal with before and after the sale.
Parker

 

[NeilKn]

Parker, the one thing Debbie insists on is buying the receiver locally. She'll order the speakers online, but wants the opportunity to carry in the receiver to the local Good Guys for service if need be.

 

[Geoff L]

Debbie and mate

Have used the SPL meter and Avia or VE disc to calibrate you system yet?

i see you picked up the meter but no mention of use yet at unless I missed it in one of the posts???

Even if you do not have a calibration disc as of yet (VE, Avia, S&V) the test tones in the reciever can be used for a start, some are pretty close but seen some that are miles off....

Calibration is absolutly critical to getting the most out of your very hard earned purchases to this point!!!!

Every time you change out receivers or speakers this has to be done.... Sounds as though your on your way to finding what serves you best but to get all you can get out of it, please calibrate that baby!!!!!

I recommend Avia for the in-coming new people (5.1), as Avia goes over board in explaining things so you can understand what your doing and why your doing it. The other discs can and will serve the same purpose but are not so in-dept with their explantions of what your doing and why...

S&V is the cheapest (20.00+) or so, and VE and Avia are close in price, (39.00+). Others may be able to tell you (where to find them the cheapest).

CC & Best Buy carry them but at around 40.00 I belive. Correct me if im wrong with the pricing guys as I bought my Avia test disc 1-1/2 years ago.
This is NOT a one time useage disc, you will more than likely find yourself going back to it many times for many different reasons. Checking phase, freq sweeps, TV calibration, on and on, etc. A ton of tests and informatiom on the Avia disc.

No matter how good your ears you will benifit from this DVD-disc and a spl meter....

Good luck and enjoy
Geoff

 

[NeilKn]

We set the system up using the meter. It was quite easy and just needed a db one way or the other.

 

[AaronJB]

I just heard the Onkyo-SKSHT500 Speaker set paired with a Panasonic SAHE100 reciever and didn't notice any issues/concerns with the center speaker.

 

[NeilKn]

Aaron, when we first heard the speakers, they were connected to the same receiver we started with, the Onkyo TX-SR600. However, it was in a large store, and the volume was set pretty high playing LOTR. When we got them home though, with the initial Onkyo 600 we had bought, the dialog sounded garbled, like someone holding a microphone too close to their mouth. This was more pronounced with deep male voices. Otherwise, they sounded great. But if you can't understand what is being said, it takes away from the movie quite a bit. Our final setup, which we are very happy with now is:
Denon 1803 Receiver
JBL S-Center
JBL N38II Floorstanding fronts
JBL N24II Bookshelf surrounds
Radio Shack Analog SPL Meter
The subwoofer is still in the works. Currently a cheap Sony WM20 as we feel that any sub is better than none, and are not about to go $500+ for a decent one. We are waiting the results from a friend who is stuffing a Sony WA40 this weekend to see how he feels about the effect. Being in an upstairs apartment, we cannot be loud and boomy. So any sub turned down to a very low level provides the .1 effects competently enough for our needs. In fact, the N38II's when set as large speakers will rock the entire building during Star Wars Chapter II ... as my wife found out by accident the other day . Had her scrambling to grab the remote real quick.

 

[steve nn]

Sounds like you have made some good progress. It sure can be frustrating at times. Congrads

 

[Geoff L]

Debbie and Mate

On page one you mentioned you have an entertainment center!

Questions:

1)- Is the TV setting on top (in the open with the Center speaker on top) with no sides, top, and back?

2)- Or is the TV setting *INSIDE* a hole in the entertainment cabinet for the TV (ie)=having sides, top and back to it??

If number (2) is your set up, this will (affect a Center channel speaker performance Drasticaly)!!!!
It acts as another box, the speaker box itself in another box, the entertainent cabinet! This will cause the speaker to sound VERY different. Boxie, un-clear, muddied midrange, very unatural, etc. Any speaker you buy will sound messed up in that type of set up. Useing the (center channel tone controls) can help, but totally fixing the altered sound from this type of placment if very diffucult with just the use of the receivers center channels tone controls...

If number (1) is your set up, then all the suggestios of sliding it out to the TV edge or just slightly past will help, pointing it directly at your ears with the use of rubber stops or what ever to get the proper line of sight, and use of the Center channels tone controls, are all very good suggestions. And the sound of the Center is not altered nearly as DRASTICLY as in the number 2 seniereo.

What I noticed:
After re-reading the whole thread this came to mind as it is some what unclear if the TV's is totally in the open, or boxxed in the entertainment center with the Center speaker on top....

So what is the set up aside from the center being on top of the TV???

Regards
Geoff