Pioneer DVR510HS or Panasonic DMRE80HS? (1 Viewer)

[Michael Reuben]

4). On several occasions, when trying to dub from HD to DVD-R, after several minutes, the unit has simply shut down, and then come back in "Recover" mode. The DVD-R is actually NOT TOUCHED, and starting again sometimes works and sometimes causes the power fail again. Has anyone else seen this? Could this be caused by DVD-R's that are not compatible?

It could be caused by incompatible DVD-Rs, but more likely it indicates a fault in that particular DVD-R. I hit about 5 of these in my first 50-disc spindle, but haven't hit any since. But this is why recording directly to DVD-R is a bit risky.

M.

 

[OwenRubin]

Thanks Michael. None of this is clear from the manual, and while I am an engineer, this is a rather complex unit for options and settings.

It could be caused by incompatible DVD-Rs, but more likely it indicates a fault in that particular DVD-R. I hit about 5 of these in my first 50-disc spindle, but haven't hit any since. But this is why recording directly to DVD-R is a bit risky.

Just to be sure I understand you, your unit also did this shutdown and RECOVER thing on some HD to DVD transfers? I was assuming that this was power supply failure or faulty unit, which is one reason to return it.

Thanks again,
-Owen Rubin-

 

[Michael Reuben]

Just to be sure I understand you, your unit also did this shutdown and RECOVER thing on some HD to DVD transfers?

I usually got an error message, but I can't recall exactly what it said. Something about "check media".

M.

 

[OwenRubin]

I usually got an error message, but I can't recall exactly what it said. Something about "check media"

I wish that helped, but tells me little! *SIGH* My unit does a hard power off, and then says RECOVER on the front display. On screen, after the power cycles, I get a message that says simply "An error occured, please check the media" and "Press Enter", which then causes the display to say "BYE", then the power comes back on and reads the DVD-R again. I have a stack of new DVD-R 4x discs that work great on my Pioneer A05 drive in my Mac, but so far, not one has worked on this recorder. Also fail with this problem about 1 minute into the dubbing. I also bought some Verbatim disks that work MOST of the time, but still have this failure rate about 90% of the time.

I really need to hear from others too, because I need to know, return this device or make it work, because this is normal.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Well, then mine is faulty, or has newer, different options. I just recorded in XP mode to the HD, and it offered me high speed to the DVD-R drive (1 hour's worth). So it seems, with mine at least, that with the exception of EP mode which does not work (strange that it does not), you must record to the HD at the same rate as you wish the DVD-R to be. So far, this works with XP and SP, both allowing High Speed transfer to show up), and not EP. I have not tried LP yet, I will let you know.

High speed dubbing is separate from any of the record modes in which you may have recorded material to the hard drive with. The key thing to remember is that you have 4.7GB worth of storage space on a blank DVD-R. The higher quality recording modes use up more disc space per minute of video than the lower quality ones. XP mode will give you 1 hour on a DVD-R, SP 2 hours, EP 4 hours, etc. FR mode can be used for material that does not exactly fit one of these modes -- e.g. 1.5 hours.

If the program you are trying to high speed dub is too big to fit onto a 4.7GB DVD-R, the E80 will not let you dub the program. For example, if you recorded a 1.5 hour program in XP mode, it will be too big to fit onto a DVD-R using high speed dubbing. Instead, the material would need to be recorded in either SP mode or FR mode with a duration of 1.5 hours.

 

[Michael Fein]

Owen-

I've been contemplating a purchase between the Panny E80 and the PioneerDVR510. I pulled the trigger today and went with the Pioneer through Plasmakings.com. I, like yourself, read reviews, etc. Could not find a lot of info on the Pioneer510 as it is fairly new on the market. On the other hand, I found out today through Crutchfield that the Panny E80 has been discontinued, hence the inexpensive price for it according to this Crutchfield 'rep'. I've talked with other 'high-end audio/video' guys and they all pointed me in the direction of the Pioneer for different reasons be it because of the Ram vs. RW debate, firewire, etc. But I've read more positives than negatives about the Panny. I read one review where an individual bought both units, used them side by side for a period of time and in the end he returned the Panny. But, what was not clear to me was if the editting capabilities were similar to the Pannys. I've been told "Yes". I guess I'll see. The other thing I wanted was firewire which the Pioneer has. The Panny E100 has firewire for a bunch more$$. I don't mean to confuse the issue, but I don't think I've done this much research since I was in school (and I'm still not crystal clear). Take it with a grain of salt. If you don't resolve your Panny issues, it's pretty simple...opt for the Pioneer....and hope. Mine is due for delivery Wednesday. I'll post back after I set up and let you know the scoop.

 

[OwenRubin]

Michael, please tell me as soon as possible what you think. I am returning my Panasonic tomorrow because I still think this power off problem is a bad power supply. But if I buy another Panasonic to replace this one, or a Pioneer may depend on the editing capabilities, so let me know ASAP.

Thanks Scott. But I was actually a computer design engineer for many years, as well as a broadband designer who has designed MPEG-2 encoding suites and digital broadcast systems for digital TV. Suffice it to say, I am WELL aware of how computers and MPEG systems work.

To clear up a few things, the DVD-R is a bit more than a simple bucket of bits, and has all kinds of menu and indexing capabilities that make it a video DVD. So a simple dump from the HD is not exactly all there is, buut close enough in this case. The Panasonic solves this DVD video thing by "finishing" at the end to add the menus and such.

All that said, I thought this unit might be smart enough to do some trasncoding from one mode to another, rather than re-encoding the data already in MPEG. The answer to that is no, it does not. And it it not even smart enough to downsample from a higher encoding rate to a lower one. That is too bad too, but again, I am not surprised.

So, the obvious thing is that you must record to the HD at the final DVD speed you want in order to do a high speed transfer to the DVD-R. That makes sense too in a simple system. In this case, it SHOULD not matter if it is EP, SP, LP or XP, so long as you "high speed transfer" it to the HD and not dub. High speed transfer would do as you say, transfer the bits from HD to the DVD-R, with some simple formatting changes. So wht does EP not work? It does not make sense, and works on all the other HD/DVD recorders.

Fitting the data is easy to figure out in the dubbing screen. But why they cannot high speed transfer the EP data makes no sense.

and as I said, thisDVD fail mode is driving me crazy. And here I thought buying one of these would be easy!

Thanks for all the input and help.

-Owen-

 

[Michael Reuben]

I just recorded in XP mode to the HD, and it offered me high speed to the DVD-R drive (1 hour's worth).

Now that you mention it, I've never tried a high-speed dub with material recorded at XP. So mine may do that as well. I've found SP more than acceptable for my purposes.

M.

 

[MitchP]

I found out today through Crutchfield that the Panny E80 has been discontinued, hence the inexpensive price for it according to this Crutchfield 'rep'.

I find this hard to believe that this model has already been discontinued. It has only been out since May or June. If this was the case this would mean Panasonic would only have one hd model left for sale and that would be the E100. There is no mention of new models on the horizon.

I have had my E-80 since June. Also in the past I had a Panasonic E-20 and a HS2 dvd recorder. There is no comparison when comparing the 2 models with hard drives. I am talking about the HS2 model with 40 gig hard drive and the E80 with the 80 gig hard drive. I had many problems from time to time about the type of dvd-r media I was using.

With the E-80 I have used lower priced Comp USA (Princo) brand to name brands like Fuji, Maxell, Verbatiom, TDK, and Sony and had no problems. That is over 250 burns and only one coaster. That one coaster is the one that shut down the dvd recorder when I started a dup. I tried to use this same dvd-r on my computer burner and it also would not let me burn to it even though it was a blank dvd-r.

But I have heard others have the same problem quoted above. With certain media shutting down the E-80 when it first starts to burn. Usually powering it back up, open the tray and reset the dvd-r, usually corrects the problem.

I am happy with mine and I can't wait to see what the next generation of Panasonic dvd recoders will look like and what type of features are built into them.

 

[KevinFord]

be in SP mode in order to use high-speed transfer

Michael, I read that you later in this thread noted that you could also dub XP mode content from HD to DVD-R in high speed mode. I used my E80 and for many dubbs I recorded in SP mode, until Scott Merryfield set me straight. Now, I use FR mode for all video that is less than 1:50. It has been quite a lot better than SP in almost every dub.

Here is what I have found to be the best modes, for what it's worth. And doing a high speed dub allows me to fit more than 1 hour [XP] and more than 2 hours [SP] since it's doing a byte copy. I've done high speed dubbs to DVD-R with 1:09 XP and 2:14 SP pretty regularly.

I basically use the following modes when recording to the HD and then transfer everything to DVD-R using high speed. The results with FR are far better than SP, except of course, for movies around 1:55 to 2:15.

Content length [mode]
---------------------
0:00 - 1:08 [XP]
1:08 - 1:55 [FR]
1:55 - 2:14 [SP]
2:14 - x:xx [XP] then I chop it up.


Owen,

If you bought it at a local retailer, hopefully you'd consider some of the feedback and trying again. I think it's a great product. I agree that the manual is too high level to be really useful. I had to learn from getting tips from Scott and Michael as to how to make the thing really hum.

BTW: I've used Maxell and TDK disks and so far, I've gone through 60 DVD's without one single failure.

Here are what I consider drawbacks.
- No firewire
- Chapter creation works, but is weak
- DVD-A (and SACD???) in 2-channel stereo
I don't even have any DVD-A's but c'mon Panasonic.
- Data entry for titling is poor. They should keep
their current entry table, but also allow entry like
in mobile phones, using keys 0-9 (abc, def, etc..)
at least for letters. Would have been nice.
- No IR blaster: VERY weak.

 

[OwenRubin]

Well, I have been using it for a week now, and I do like it. The damn cheap DVD-R's I bought are the problem (Stay away from Digital Matrix 4X DVD-R) I agree with the comments above about title entry, difficult but quite usable, and the remote could use a jog/shuttle wheel as a great improvement. By the way, you CAN enter similar to a cell phone EXCEPT that you have to press enter when you get to the right character. but unlike a cell phone, there are considerably more character choices here. My other complaint is that while you can enter over 50 characters for a program title, only the first 44 display in the menu, and of course, you do not know this until AFTER you finalize the disk. Why noy just stop the input to what will display?

As for high speed dub, the rule is simple. ALL MODES (except EP it seems) will high speed dub to DVD-R as long as ALL the content you want to transfer is in the same recorded quality mode. You also may not mix speeds to use high speed mode. (ie: you cannot high speed transfer LP and XP combined content, or record in XP and high speed dub in LP mode.)

I have been using LP mode (4 hour) for off-the-air shows and feel the quality is as good as any S-VHS tape, so that is what I have been using and I am happy with it. (Given that DirecTV and Dish all use an encoding mode similar to LP (1.5 to 3.2 Mbps), I figure it should be good enough here too!) Movies will probably go in SP modeI love the editing functions, because if you take the commericals out, in LP mode you can put 6 TV episodes onto a single DVD (it sucks that TV shows are only 41 minutes long now without commericals.)

I do not miss firewire even though I have a firewire camera because this unit is not smart enough to high speed dub DV content anyway, so re-encoding would have to take place. But with S-Video, I can copy the content I wish in the mode I wish, and high speed dub it to the DVD. Given that most consumer cameras are not exceptionally high quality to begin with, this too is not a big deal.

And no IR blaster....DUMB! Since I use DISH network, I have to set timers in both if I want to record real time. However, I have the DISH PVR, so simply dub to the DVD recorder at another time, so this too I can deal with. Now, if I could only dub digitally from the PVR to the DVD recorder, that would be GREAT!

I also think they could have been more creative with the DVD menu choices as well. At least some simple animation. Move the water in the background of #7 for instance! Or some video icons at least. For a great product, the end result menus look cheap! Even Apple's iDVD does a better job than this!

Lastly, I did have my first DVD-R that said it recorded and finished fine, but when I tried to play it, the DMR-E80H screen said the disc was not compatible with this unit. I tried it in my other DVD player, and while it played, it had MANY errors. A strange result. Make me nervous that some of my DVDs I have recorded may not be good. *SIGH*

By the way, if you are shopping for one of these, The Good Guys in California (online too) have this unit for $699, plus another 10% off if you ask for the "on-line" special or buy it on line for a total of $629, and they have an additional $100 rebate through the end of this year on DVD-R models for a total of $529 (plus tax). A great price for this toy!

By the way, I want to plug a great web site for excellent prices on buying blank media. Try MERITLINE (no, I have no connection, web address is this name between www and com) They have a great feature where you input your burner model (comsumer and computer types) and it will tell you which DVDs or CD-Rs will work with your unit. Of course, the ones I bought for my computer I just discovered are not compatible with this unit! Sigh!

 

[Michael Fein]

Finally hooked up and had time to experiment and play with my Pioneer DRV510HS over the last few days. This is the low down IMHO...

I am very happy with the unit. I transferred over 12 hours worth of home movies from an older 8 mm. camcorder via analog cables to the harddrive as well as some footage from my VCR (VHS tape) to the HD. Editing is a snap. It could not be easier than this!! The manual is excellent and understandable. If I had read it thoroughly in the first place, I would not have stumbled in the beginning trying to find out why the video feed was less than desirable (can you say L1 input?). However, I did notice an even more noticeable improvement when using an S-Video cable in place of the yellow analog cable from my DSS receiver to the Pioneer unit. The interface is great.
Thumbnails to represent every recording and you can EASILY change the thumbnails with the push of a button on the remote. BTW, the remote gets high grades also for functionality. After editting a particular recording, the transfer to the -R DVD was a snap and finalization went very quickly. The end product played with no problems on an older Toshiba DVD player that I own. I used Fuji media.
Finally, I played back a DVD movie, "Bad Boys" (rented from a video store). No complaints with playback at all as it is very smooth.

 

[Craig Beam]

Owen: So in order to transfer content from your Dish Network PVR onto the DMR-E80H's hard drive, I assume you'd be using S-video? I'm wondering if there would be a perceptible loss in video quality... I have the same PVR as you, and I'm taking the DMR-E80H plunge next month (tax return!). I have a lot of PVR'd material that I'm planning to archive onto DVD-Rs... as long as the quality remains more or less intact.

 

[OwenRubin]

I own a high end Denon A/V amp which switches S-Video. The Panasonic is connected as VCR-1, which means that ANY S-Video source can be fed to the unit via the A/V amps record output. For me, that is the DISH PVR (TV Input), a S-VHS VCR (VCR-2), a TiVo unit (AUX), a Panasonic HDTV receiver (VDP) and a Pioneer Laser Disk/DVD player (DVD).

The "loss" of quality is subjective. Compared to what? And in what record mode? If I record in SP mode, there is a slight but negligible loss due to re-compressing already compressed video, but the results are better than any S-VHS tape in any mode. Would I like to save the DVR content directly, you bet. BUT, since I use to archive on S-VHS tape in EP mode (14, 1 hour episodes, sans commercials on a JVC ST-210), I find the DVD recorder in LP mode to be slightly better than tape, so I am happy. If I want something kept in great quality, I will record in SP mode, but that is only 1 hour of video on a DVD-R, and that would be a LOT of DVDs.

Do I see some Macroblocking? Yes! Is it objectionable? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. When viewed on a big screen, the LP quality is not so great for many programs. On my 27" Sony, just fine.

One nice feature on the Panasonic unit is the ability to "adjust" a number of items on the video playback, including the ability to add filters which really reduce the macroblocking effect. If you soften the picture as well, the image looks great. There are about 6 to 8 settings, user adjustable, that my be set on video playback.

Keep in mind that the bit rate for MOST of Dish (and DirecTV) channels is 2.5 Mbps OR LESS (VBR). Now granted that they are being encoded via two pass, commercial grade $80K encoders, but 2.5 Mbps is still not exceptional quality video even with those encoders, so the initial source is already only OK quality, which is why I record in LP mode most of the time.

Off the air digital signals (HDTV receiver set to 480P, we have a LOT of off-air digital channels in the SF Bay Area) connected to the DVD-R via S-Video (the last available input on my amp) has actually given the best results so far for programs recorded in ANY mode, but LP looks great to me here as well. I like the 4 hours per DVD, and am happy with the results.

Let me know what you think. After a few weeks, I really like this unit. Two things that suck: It BADLY needs a jog/shuttle dial for editing. And the title input feature needs a keyboard, for which I would gladly pay extra for.

-Owen-

 

[Michael Reuben]

And the title input feature needs a keyboard

Or at the very least, more flexible controls. In addition to the "stop" button for save and the "pause" button for erase, some combination of buttons should allow you to reposition the cursor at any point during title entry, and some other button (maybe "play") should enter a space.

Edited on 1/5/04 at 2:51pm

M.

 

[Craig Beam]

Thanks, Owen... that helps. Sounds like as long as I stick to XP, SP or FR, I should be fine. Man, I can't wait to get mine!

 

[OwenRubin]

Or at the very least, more flexible controls. In addition to the "stop" button for save and the "pause" button for erase, the arrow buttons should allow you to reposition the cursor at any point during title entry, and some other button (maybe "play") should enter a space.

Actually, you CAN position the cursor! Press UP until the line of text is highlighted, and then left and right will move the cursor. At the cursor point you can then use delete key to remove characters or simple move the selection point back down to the character selection and add additional characters. Unfortunately, if you ALWAYS moved the cursor, then selecting characters to enter would be more difficult.

Remember, if you use the number buttons to jump closer to the character you want, you can move either left or right to get more quickly to the right character. As for space, press 100/enter to get a space quickly.

-Owen-

 

[Michael Reuben]

Unfortunately, if you ALWAYS moved the cursor, then selecting characters to enter would be more difficult.

I realized after I posted my suggestion that using the arrow keys wouldn't work, because they already control character selection. Maybe the "skip" keys (a/k/a chapter keys).

M.

 

[Mike Up]

Nice to see this forum finally opening a DVD Recorder forum. I guess I'll be visiting this site along with AVSFORUM's site.

I've owned both the DMR-E80H and the Pioneer DVR-510H. By far, the Pioneer DVR-510 is a much better recorder offering superior performance over the E80H and offering features more in line with the E100H.

If you go to AVSFORUM, there are numerous threads of problems related to that forum's favorite recorder, the E80H. Hard drive problems seem to be the biggest problem, then recovery problems, then tonal changes in recording (main complaint is that the hue of a face changes from green to red. This has been seen mostly on VCR dubs but now there's complaints from DirecTV receivers).

My problems were from the unit's TBC circuit. It was adding digital artifacts to the passed through video when I wasn't even recording. This was seen in all recording mode settings, but as I said, I wasn't even recording. I saw typical MPEG2 artifacts as banding on flesh tones, glimmering patches on flesh tones(this has also been a problem that's been widely complained about), and typical bulls eye artifacts that open up on brightening scenes or close up on darkening scenes. This is the reason I exchanged the recorder. These artifacts were unacceptable.

Also, manual doesn't explain what settings actually do. The DVD Compatibility setting is the same as the Pioneer's Frame accurate setting. A DVD is compatible only if frame accurate is turned off. So DVD Compatibility "ON" with the Panasonic equals FRAME ACCURATE OFF with the Pioneer. The list goes on, but the Pioneer is much easier to use based on more defined functions and easier to understand editing.

As far as the Pioneer goes, I've only found it to produce PERFECT recordings. It does have very, very slight bulls eye artifacting on brightening or darkening scenes, but the effect is so minimal, I could only verify it was there after using my receiver's video switching between the source and the recorder, about 10 times. It's that minimal, where the Panasonic was obvious unfortunately.

Of course,I find the Pioneer much easier to use and it's lower bit rates are also very good, inducing minimal artifacts compared to the Panasonic.

I admit, I really don't like DVD-RAM because of low compatibility, but that didn't factor into my decision, PERFORMANCE was the only issue in my decision in returning the E80H. That was a very hard decision considering I bought it from Sears for only $530 with a price match, VERY VERY HARD to return it.

With Pioneer's recently announced $100 rebate, the DVR-510H can now be bought for the same low price I paid at Sears, from other authorized internet retailers. That doesn't even include a price match.

If you need any other information on my experiences with either unit, doing a search at AVSFORUM at the DVD Recorder forum should find you my threads and posts.

Have a good one.

 

[OwenRubin]

Mike,

Where was your answer when I could still exchange mine?

I have seen that color problem some, especially from old VHS tapes. But all in all, I am very happy with the results of transfers, especially from Dish via s-video, and the editing features, now that I am getting good at using them, are working very well too. And for me, editing is THE most important feature, and why I skipped the TiVo version.

Overall, the E80HS is a great machine. I am SURE there will be better ones in the future, but like all electronics, there always is.