Non-Axiom center with Axiom mains (1 Viewer)

[Eric_Singer]

I currently use Axiom M22's as my main speakers, and I am looking to buy a center. I understand that it is highly reccommended to use centers and mains from the same manufacturer to create a matching soundstage, but the Axiom centers don't seem to be as good as their other speakers from what I've read, and I was wondering whether it would be possible to use a center from a similar manufacturer (PSB or Paradigm, perhaps) that offers better performance for the $300 price of the VP150. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Eric

 

[John Dunlap]

As I'm sure you know, there ar 2 different schools of thought on this issue. One says that you NEED to have all 3 front speakers timbre matched or your system will sound like crud. The other says that this whole timbre matching thing is overrated.

With any system that I've owned I've always had all 3 of my mains at least made by the same manufacturer and it would certainly be my preference to have the same tweeter design in all 3 fronts.

With that being said I can relate to what you're saying. IMO-If you feel that the Axiom center is an inferior product you should probably be looking at other centers and doing some in home evaluation to see what works for you. I would strongly recommend doing some sound level calibration before evaluating.

By the way why are you hesitant about the Axiom center?? From what I've read on Audio Review, it's a highly regarded product.

 

[Heath_R]

I have the VP100 and I am very happy with it. The forward sound of axioms gives very detailed voices.

 

[Robertto]

Wonder if you could run a m22 as a center for a quick audition of how the vp100 would sound? Should give you a good idea of how the ctr would sound.

I tried it and was pretty damn thrilled

 

[Jeff Kohn]

The Axiom VP150 is regarded as being a very good center, I'm not sure what you've heard to make you think it isn't up to the level of the rest of the line. The only negative issue with the VP150 is its size, if you have a smaller TV there's a chance you won't be able to put it on top the TV since it's 27" wide. But the sound quality is excellent, very transparent and slightly forward just like the rest of their speakers. And the tweeter/woofer arrangement with the two tweeters on the outside of the woofers gives excellent dispersion for off-center performance. If you're happy with your M22's, I can't imagine you would be disappointed with the VP150.

 

[Dustin B]

If you don't mind the look of a bookshelf (you'll want to keep it up right, don't put it on its' side) for the center channel you could use a M3 or M22 as the center. Axiom sells them individually.

I really don't like the layout of the VP150 and the VP100 will have the same off axis problems every other two way horizontal MTM center has. And there is no better timbre match than the same speaker.

 

[Jeff Kohn]

I really don't like the layout of the VP150 and the VP100 will have the same off axis problems every other two way horizontal MTM center has. And there is no better timbre match than the same speaker.

Well, if you don't like the MTM arrangment that many center channels use, what is it that you dislike about the VP150's arrangement? Assuming that an upright bookshelf is not desirable or maybe even impossible, what other option is there?

 

[Dustin B]

Here is a thread I started in the DIY Advanced section because I was curious what I was missing about the VP150.
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...ighlight=Axiom
Doesn't come to any hard conclusions, but Thomas and Greg are the guys to listen to in that thread.
What else is there? 2.5way MTM or a 3way WTMW (with the TM in a vertical arrangement). B&W has several 2.5way MTM and the top Nautilus center is a 3way. JBL Studio series has a 3way center. Boston Acoustics has a 3way. NHT has a several 3way centers. There are several DIY 3way center designs out there. There are others with 3way and 2.5way horizontal centers that don't come immediately to mind right now.
Another option is what Vandersteen does. Coaxial drivers in the center.

 

[Rich Malloy]

The VP150 is considered to be an excellent center speaker. It's arrayed as it is to alleviate the very same off-axis problems that plague most center channels which you speak of (those with M-T-M arrays). It would be a perfect match for your M22s, and I simply cannot understand why you think it wouldn't cut it.

What other center channels are you considering? Do you want one with vertically aligned T-M's like the Diva? Are there specific models you're considering?

 

[Robertto]

Hey Rich,

I have the M22s as well and am planning on getting the 100 or 150 ctr to compliment them. I am running a Denon 1801 (70wx5)receiver. I know the sensitivity is high on the 150 but will the 70W per channel be enough to power it?

Thanks

 

[Dustin B]

It's arrayed as it is to alleviate the very same off-axis problems that plague most center channels which you speak of (those with M-T-M arrays).

This is what I don't understand. The problem with the off axis response of the horizontal MTM array is lobing. One midwoof is closer to an off axis listener than the other. the closer the midwoofs are together and the lower they are crossed over to the tweeter the less of a problem this becomes. Putting two tweeters over 1.5ft appart, from my understanding, would cause off axis lobing over the tweeters entire bandwidth.

Now in the thread I linked to, Greg's last post mentions something I've never heard of and don't understand. If Axiom has managed to do what Greg speaks of, and it does somehow improve off axis response, I'll change my opinion. Anybody have some off axis response graphs of the VP150?

 

[Rich Malloy]

Not on me, I'm afraid - must be in the other pants.
What center channel design do you prefer in this regard, Dustin? Specifically, how are the woofs arrayed/crossed-over in the ones you like?
My advice would be to identify all models with the array you prefer, and then narrow it down by tweeter. Matching the timbre of Axiom's titanium tweeter will be your primary concern.
And unless lobing issues are very greatly improved by the design you prefer, I think your overall sound quality will suffer more due to mismatched timbres in your front soundstage than due to any inherent lobing problems in the Axiom center.

 

[Brian Bunge]

Rich,

What Dustin is referring to is a 3-way center in which the mid and tweet are vertically aligned, and then flanked by a pair of larger woofers. This is how most of the high end centers are designed. This is also the design I prefer when you cannot use an identical speaker as your L/R mains that is also vertically aligned. If I were buying Axiom bookshelf speakers for my mains, I'd buy a third and use it as the center channel.

I realize that not everyone can place a 12+" tall speaker vertically on top of their TV. But it will result in the best sound. The MTM (or any other driver layout where the drivers are not vertically arrayed) on it's side is purely an aesthetics/space saving compromise.

Brian

 

[Dustin B]

Rich, I have JBL Studio series speakers. My center is a three way design with a vertically alligned 1" tweeter and 4" mid with a pair of 5.25" woofs flanking both. It sounds noticably better off axis than my old Klipsch SC1 did.

If I was in Eric's position I'd be buying another M22 for my center. Would look a little funny on top of my TV. Wouldn't look funny after I eventually get a FPTV.

I got the JBLs because circumstances made it beneficial to more than just me. Anyways they are just an incremental upgrade to tide me over until circumstances allow me to build a bunch of speakers. At which point I'll either build 5 Adire Kit281 vented towers and their new 3way LCC center (vertically alligned 1" tweeter and 5.25" mid flanked by a pair of 8" drivers). Or I'll build 6 GR Research AV1+ bookshelves, and use one vertically as the center.

 

[Rich Malloy]

If I was in Eric's position I'd be buying another M22 for my center. Would look a little funny on top of my TV. Wouldn't look funny after I eventually get a FPTV.

The M22 is approximately 20" tall, which would make it a tad more difficult to place than other, shorter bookshelves. Putting an M3 in the middle might be a better option (much shorter, different mid-woofer, but with the same tweeter).

I'd asked above if it was "the Diva-like configuration" that he prefered, and I suppose it is. I'm also nearing a final decision on speakers, and the alignment of their center speaker is one of the reasons why I've all but decided on going the Diva route (I also prefer, generally speaking, a silk tweeter to any kind of metal tweeter).

Maybe the best advice would be to rethink the M22s, and go with a speaker that'll match the center Eric prefers. Does anyone think that mismatched speakers in his preferred T-above-M array would sound better than matching speakers with an M-T-M array (or, in the VP150's case, a T-M-M-M-T array)?

 

[Eric_Singer]

Everyone,

Thanks for all of your help - you really got me thinking here... The MTM/TMMMT is what was making me hesitant to go with the Axiom center. I use my system primarily for music, so I don't want to pick a great center and find matching mains, but rather keep the mains I like (the M22's) and find a center that blends reasonably well. Well, Axiom is coming out with a new version of the M2, the M2i. This will have the same tweeter as the M22 and one instead of two 5.25" mid/woofers. It is only 11" high versus 20" for the M22, so it could easily fit on my television and keep the tweeter roughly at ear level. Even though it only has one woofer instead of two, this would likely be a good center candidate, correct?

Eric

 

[Dustin B]

Turning a M22 on it's side is a bad idea. Turning an M22 upside down to get the tweeter lower, wouldn't be.

And yes Rich the Diva C3 is a 3way center with the same layout as the JBL, NHT, B&W Nautilus and Boston Acoustics 3way centers.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Axiom is coming out with a new version of the M2, the M2i. This will have the same tweeter as the M22 and one instead of two 5.25" mid/woofers...

!!!!!

This is good news, and also of interest to those looking for smaller, direct radiating rear speakers!

But where in the world did you hear this?

 

[Eric_Singer]

Rich,
It was in the Axiom email newsletter that came out this morning. You can sign up on the front page of the Axiom website, www.axiomaudio.com. I, too, thought of the possibility of using these new speakers as rears; with the improved tweeter, I'm sure they'd perform quite well in that role. Regardless, I'm simply looking for a center now, and I don't want to get carried away into making another purchase!
Eric