Lexicon MC-1 is in the house!!!! (1 Viewer)

[Ricky T]

RAF,

You wrote:

"Just because you don't use all the amps in a receiver doesn't make it the equal of a good pre/pro. Yes, relieving the receiver of some of the load does usually improve things, but it doesn't magically transform it into a dedicated pre/pro."

Chung wrote:

"It is my firm belief that a properly designed receiver's pre-pro section should not be compromised at all by the presence of the amps."

IMO, these two statements are 100% contradictory. The discussion here is receivers used as prepros vs. dedicated prepros, not the preformance of power amps (which we do all seem to agree are good investments). Chung is saying, if you don't use the amps, then a receiver IS a prepro in every sonic respect; ie, B&K307 >> Ref30, Marantz SR18 >> AV9000, Sony 777ES >> 9000es.

 

[Steven Simon]

Vince and Craw,

Actually the earlier of the two.

 

[Michael Reuben]

Actually the earlier of the two.

I knew that.

 

[Legairre]

Can any of you guys tell me what the version 4 upgrade includes. Also when Lexicon issues updates how much do they usually cost? I know Anthem plans on charging $300 for their board upgrade and I've heard B&K will be charging around 900 for their upgrade to the Ref 30. What does Lexicon usually charge?

Thanks

Legairre

 

[Lee-c]

I was wondering, before the HK people bought Lexicon, was Lexicon a U.S. owned company?
And if so, are Lexicons still made in the U.S.?
Thanks for any info.
Steven, glad to see that you're pleased with the sound of your system more than ever. There is
no substitute for quality in a stereo system of any sort. It doesn't necessarily have to cost
a ton of money, but you have to carefully pick hardware that performs in demanding situations
and that blends well with your other hardware if you want to get really good sound. After that,
it's just a matter of degree.

 

[Ricky T]

I recall reading that dts/V4.0 upgrade is $300, and dts/V4.0/DD-EX upgrade is $500. Pretty reasonable IMO as these upgrades also include DTS. Most Lexicon users don't need DD-EX, as they prefer using 5.1 Logic7.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Congrats on the MC-1 Steve, now you can start experimenting with the bass enhance stuff
btw---don't rush to the MC-12. The longer my is in my rack,the more I miss my MC-1. Lexicon sez they are coming out with a DL to fix all the bugs soon though...so I'm hoping that will take care of some issues...
IMO---the DC-1 V3.1 and higher is the near equal to the MC-12 in sonics anyway...I mean...99.99% there.
TV

 

[Steven Simon]

Thanks Guys. I have posted my review in this area as well as on my website.

 

[RAF]

Ricky T,
I'm not going to get into a pissing match regarding the analysis of every word in a sentence with you or with chung for that matter. I have more important things to do with my time.
I realize that chung and I don't see eye to eye on everything but we do have a lot in common. And, based on what he has posted elsewhere, I have the utmost respect for his credentials.
What I was trying to say (and what I am subscribing to by getting rid of the Denon 5700 and replacing it with true separates) is that I can't see buying a receiver just to use the pre/pro part of it. You are wasting money on unused amps. If the same pre/pro is available as a stand alone (like in your examples) then fine. Buy it if you like, but don't spend more for the receiver if you are not going to use the amps. My quote was intended to mean that the receiver would not be the equal of a good pre/pro in the same price range. I felt that the comment was clear within the context of my response. Taking it out of context alters the meaning.
This recent tendency on the part of some here to suggest buying a receiver to use as a pre/pro alone misses the important point that if you spend the same amount of money for each item, more often than not the dedicated pre/pro will outperform the comparably priced receiver.
Starting with a receiver and then branching off into separates, with the intermediate step of using the receiver as a pre/pro appears to me to be a natural order of progression. But buying a receiver just to use it as a pre/pro (unless you score a killer deal) seems to be a less desireable investment. If you already have or are buying the amps, then why not invest in a pre/pro for the money you are going to spend for the receiver? You are going to get more bang for the buck.
I'll say it again. The day of the "mega receiver" to me is over. There are an increasing number of separates options available out there that can actually cost less than some of these expensive receivers and sound much better. Other than the attraction and convenience of a one box solution I can't think of anything else that would provide a serious argument for a receiver when you start getting into the $2000+ budget range (or maybe even less with some sharp shopping).
Do I make myself clear?

 

[Randy G]

Even though I love the convenience of the single-box solution, I must agree with Robert. The final nail in the mega-priced receiver coffin will come when a standard for a single cable connection between pre-pro and amp is widely implemented...obviating the need for 5-7 interconnects. In addition, buying a receiver for its pre-pro strikes me as silly as well.

 

[Ricky T]

RAF,

I was responding to your initial post in this thread:

"As I told you over in the HT Construction section, what you are experiencing is the difference between "receiver" sound and "separates" sound. I had exactly the same reaction when I replaced my Denon 5700's pre/pro section with the Outlaw 950. The difference in sound was definitely beyond "subtle."

Sorry if I misunderstood and offended you. I wasn't aware we were debating receivers vs separates in terms of overall performance or better value; I thought this was about why Steven is hearing these sonic improvements in his system when he did one single step, taking out the Denon 4800 (as prepro) and putting in the MC1. I was merely disagreeing with your statement above that Steven was hearing prepro vs. receiver as prepro. I think he is hearing Logic7/Lexicon HT processing vs non-Logic7 HT processing.

And there are some valid reasons why some people buy a flagship receiver: 3 component video inputs, built-in demodulator for LD, needing more than 8+ inputs (too many components), THX Ultra2 7 channel processing, 30% online discounts NIB with warranty.

Cheers,

Ricky

 

[Richard Burzynski]

RAF:

"What I was trying to say (and what I am subscribing to by getting rid of the Denon 5700 and replacing it with true separates) is that I can't see buying a receiver just to use the pre/pro part of it. You are wasting money on unused amps."

Here are the reasons why I purchased a receiver, to specifically use as a prepro.

* Unique DSP's. I am a fan of certain DSP's - these are currently only available on a receiver.

* Proprietary/additional DSP speakers. Yamaha calls them front effects. I really enjoy the sonics they add.

* Number of A/V inputs. I have mucho gear. I need to accomodate: DVD, LD (RF Demod), Phono (vinyl), cassette (old school), 2 VCR's, PS2, Cable box, CD changer, SACD, PC audio.

* Built in radio tuner.

These were my requirements when I was searching for my new prepro. As you can see, DSP's are important to me as I listed them as reasons # 1 & 2. There were certain DSP substitutes that I considered, but those pieces did not meet the other requirements (like number & type of inputs).

Not only do I not consider the purchase to be a "waste", I think I saved money. The "dedicated" prepros with a good number of inputs were way more $-wise, and they didn't have all features I want/need.

My 2 cents.

Rich B.

 

[Will Gatlin Jr]

Tom...
"IMO---the DC-1 V3.1 and higher is the near equal to the MC-12 in soncs anyway...I mean...99.99& there."
If anyone else stated that FACT, they'd have to go 15 rounds, lol.
Still the proud owner of a DC-1 (vers4). It's hard to beat a properly set-up 7.1 Lexicon system.
Steve...
Congrats!!

 

[Steve Morgan]

Ricky, John T. Steve S. You sold me! I ordered the MC1 today.Ricky I hope you are right. If so I owe you dinner.

Steve M.

 

[Steven Simon]

You won't be sorry Steve.....

 

[John Tompkins]

Steven, Congrats Im looking forward to YOUR review to see if you come to the same conclusions. One thing that is almost for sure, logic 7 will impress you along with the tweaks. By chance if it didnt work out, no worries as the mc-1s on ebay go for around 2300~2500.00 dollars anyway..

By the way where did you get it ? if you got it from audio buys, you did ask about the volume knob issue, correct ?

 

[RAF]

A few comments:
Ricky T,
"Offended" is too harsh a word. I didn't mean to convey that idea, but I guess my words might have been interpreted that way. Sorry about that. I was just disagreeing with your opinion.
My original remark to Steve Simon was in regards to the sudden opening of sound when going from a Denon receiver's pre/pro to a dedicated one. Although I didn't go to a Lexicon (but an Outlaw 950) I could have written exactly the same words to describe what I heard (in fact I might have in one of my beta test reports). I basically did something similar to Steve in that my new pre/pro took the receiver pre/pro out of the equation. The only things that Steve also did was to add Logic 7 and, also importantly, to have dedicated amps all around. I'm still with the Denon amps as my surround amps but this will change tomorrow (I hope) when my Outlaw 755 arrives.
I have no doubt that each incremental change from receiver to separates and then to the various features of the separates causes an increase in audio enjoyment. Everyone has their own personal biases. With the 950 I have found that I enjoy listening to music in its original mode. I played with some of the DPL2 modes and the Cirrus enhancements as well as the DTS Neo modes but I still prefer Stereo for stereo, DTS for DTS, DD5.1 for DD5.1, etc.etc. for most of my listening with a rare exception or two where the source is really bad in original form.
I am not disputing that Logic 7 provides a rich aural experience and I might add it to my arsenal at some point in the future. There are too many people here whom I respect who rave about it for me not to at least give it an audition at some future time. However, we can also open up another can of worms by bringing up the "intended sound" versus the "processed sound" debate that the currently banned John/Merc/Whomever Morris started. I'd prefer not to do that right here, right now. As I said, my preference is to listen to a recording in the recorded form and there are no DPL2 or Neo or CES or Logic 7 sources out there. Don't take this as an indictment of DSPs and other processing. It's a personal preference, not a statement of fact.

Here are the reasons why I purchased a receiver, to specifically use as a prepro.

Richard,
You present some valid reasons for why you prefer a receiver and, if you feel that way, that's fine. If a receiver meets your needs based on your requirements, then it's the best choice for you. Without a doubt some receivers offer more input choices than some pre/pros. I found that out when I switched from my Denon 5700 to my Outlaw 950. However, the truth of the matter is that some of the equipment I didn't attach to the 950 was stuff I haven't used in years (a third VCR, for example.) So it wasn't as much of an issue with me.
Also, as I indicated above, I'm not a big user of DSPs so I don't miss that with my pre/pro. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I listened to something using one of the 5700's DSP modes. And if DSP's are of interest to you then I would imagine that the tremendous versatility of something like the MC-1 would offer you enless possibilities in that regard. Not as convenient, perhaps, but much more flexible.
As to RF-3 and phono pre-amps, yes they are not always included on pre-pros but are readily available as additional separates for those who find them essential. (I am tempted to pick up a nice phono pre-amp to resurrect my B&O 4002 turntable at some point.)
And some pre/pros (like the 950) do contain a tuner, if that's a priority. But, once again a separate tuner is a viable option.
My use of the word "waste" was not directed at the performance or features of the pre/pro section of a receiver. It was directed the money that you spend on amps you won't be using if you purchase a receiver as a dedicated pre/pro. With the introduction of so many new dedicated pre/pros as well as an active market involving used equipment, my point is that for the same money that you spent on a receiver you could have probably purchased a pre/pro with better performance (if you already have the amps). Of course, I understand your position that if the pre/pro doesn't have the features you want then convenience, not performance may be your top priority. In fact, your position might be that "convenience" is a factor in your "performance" equation, and I can understand this.
The receiver world is populated with a lot of great products with a host of different configurations and options. The world of separates offers greater flexibility if you are willing to deal with add-ons to support additional needs. At one time separates were, for the most part, far more expensive than most receivers but your money also bought increased performance. Now with the introduction of a whole series of new, lower priced, but not lower performing separates, it is no longer an axiom that you must spend more for separates than for receivers for increased performance.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Robert,

" As I said, my preference is to listen to a recording in the recorded form and there are no DPL2 or Neo or CES or Logic 7 sources out there."

Actually, there are Logic 7 encoded sources out there, not many but a few. Some CDs have been Logic 7 encoded as has the 2 channel PCM track on some DVDs.

It is also worth noting that every Lexicon since the DC-1 can also function as a Logic 7 *encoder*. It can take a 5.1 DD or DTS source and Logic 7 encode it down to 2 channels. When played back in Logic 7 it recaptures very much of the original sources discrete nature. The MC-12 can do this with SACD and DVD-A sources too.

"I played with some of the DPL2 modes and the Cirrus enhancements as well as the DTS Neo modes but I still prefer Stereo for stereo, DTS for DTS, DD5.1 for DD5.1, etc.etc. for most of my listening with a rare exception or two where the source is really bad in original form. "

With all those Dolby Surround encoded LDs I'm suprised you prefer DPL over DPLII when playing them back. I've got a couple hundred myself and haven't listened to them in plain DPL for 7 or 8 years. If you have a chance you might want to do more comparisons between the two on that material.

Shawn

 

[Dzung Pham]

Is it true that Logic 7 can not be used with a 6.1 speaker setup? I've seen this stated before but would like to get confirmation since I only have space for 6.1.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

"Is it true that Logic 7 can not be used with a 6.1 speaker setup?"
Yes, Logic 7 is built for 5 or 7 speaker setup, not 6.1 because Lexicon feels that is a bad setup.
According to the research done by Dr. David Griesinger of Lexicon a rear center speaker is psychoacoustically a bad idea. The reason being is a sound source heard from directly behind a listener can be misheard as coming from in front of the listener. This nullifies the point of having a rear center.
Logic 7 has stereo rears specifically to avoid this problem. They also recommend the rear speakers positioning as being about 140 degrees from front center on either side. This combined with the sides gives good localization to the rear as well as giving a seamless rear soundstage.
See:
http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Lexicon/dg_qa1.html
for an interview with Dr. Griesinger where he mentions this.
Shawn