Lexicon MC-1 is in the house!!!! (1 Viewer)

[RAF]

Quote:

I stand corrected! I totally forgot about my DPL LD's. Yes, I do prefer DPL2 over DPL on these LDs. When I was beta testing the 950 I ran through all of these modes and when playing DPL LDs DPL2 sounded better to me. I'm getting so used to DVDs these days that my aging LD collection gets neglected.
And the Lex encodes as well as decodes? You keep talking like that and you are going to cost me some serious money.

 

[Will Gatlin Jr]

I've been playing my PL LDs for the past few years with my Lexicon/Logic 7. The side/rears are split like stereo. Let's not even talk about the sound quality of a THX/DTS LD vs a DVD.

 

[Ricky T]

RAF,

Testing whether or not you like Logic7, or think it makes a sonic difference, is easy enough....if you ever visit someone's place with Logic7, you can toggle between 5.1 tracks with and without Logic7 engaged. Same for 2.0/DPL DSS and CDs.

Also, the sonic improvements that you describe (5700 to Outlaw) remind me of comments from those going from Denon 5600 to 5700, and 5700 to 5800. Seems like Denon made vast improvements from each step. However, the 5803 vs 5800 should yield less relative sonic improvement, as the 5800 is already so good.

Steven's comments are similiar too, except for the 360 degree soundstage and not being able to localize any of his 7 speakers....IMO, this is Logic7 and the side/rear algorithms.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Robert,
"Thanks for the information. I didn't realize this. Any titles? "
For CDs Revel is the label that has done some L7 endoded CDs, not sure if there are others. For DVDs New Line Cinema has used L7 encoding on some of their 'Platinum' editions PCM tracks.
"I totally forgot about my DPL LD's. Yes, I do prefer DPL2 over DPL on these LDs."
OK, that makes more sense. I would have been very suprised if your preference was the other way around.
Also, just 'cause I'm a PITA , LD's aren't Dolby Pro Logic encoded. There is no such thing as Dolby Pro Logic encoding, it is a decode format only. The encode format on the majority of your LDs is called "Dolby Surround."
Logic 7 and Dolby Pro Logic II differ from Dolby Pro Logic in that they are both encode and decode formats.
"I'm getting so used to DVDs these days that my aging LD collection gets neglected. "
I know the feeling!
Shawn

 

[Scott-C]

It is also worth noting that every Lexicon since the DC-1 can also function as a Logic 7 *encoder*. It can take a 5.1 DD or DTS source and Logic 7 encode it down to 2 channels. When played back in Logic 7 it recaptures very much of the original sources discrete nature. The MC-12 can do this with SACD and DVD-A sources too.

Shawn or Others: would you be willing to expound on this a little bit for me (I guess I don't quite understand what you mean)? I just want to understand what is exactly happening here. Are you saying that a Lex MC-1 (among others) will take, for example, a DD5.1 DVD soundtrack, and convert what is in those 5.1 channels into two channels for playback through the front left/right speakers only? Why would anyone want to do that? Or are you saying that it does this as an intermediate step in the encoding process, immediately followed by some encoding by Lexicon to take the modified 2-channel sound and convert it to a "Logic7 soundtrack" (so to speak) that will be played through all 7 channels?
If the latter is true, is this process somehow technically different than the "process" that occurs when selecting Logic7 as an enhancement to a DD5.1 DVD? The way I think of this is as a decoding process (decoding a 5.1 source and using Logic7's DSP to run it through 7 channels). But if that is a correct way to think of it, I don't understand how that different from what you are describing as an encoding process.
I hope I was able to adequately articulate my question! :rolleyes

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Scott,

"and convert what is in those 5.1 channels into two channels for playback through the front left/right speakers only? Why would anyone want to do that?"

Do you have a CD player in your car? Or in your workshop... or anywhere else for that matter. By letting you downmix the 5.1 DD/DTS soundtrack (or DVD-A or SACD on MC-12) down to 2 channels (and control how the channels are all L7 encoded) it lets you bring that music with you for playback on 2 channel equipment.

And if played back by a L7 decoder it will recover a very large part of the original discrete channels of the encoding.

Ditto for a MP3 player, MD..etc...etc.

Or for recording DVDs to VCR, PVR and the like for playback later in L7.

It has another use too... say you have a DVD-A/SACD or concert DVD with a 5.1 mix that is to aggressive for your tastes. The mixer put too much material in the surrounds for example. If you L7 encode it down to 2 channels (and obviously store it on a CD-R or something) by listening to the music from the CD (in Logic 7 decode) you have greater control over the mix. You can use L7s Soundstage parameter to make the mix more frontal oriented. Or if it didn't have a hard center the L7 decoding on the 2 channel encode can steer you a center channel out of the mix.

It can even help in the surrounds too. I've got a couple of concert DVDs that the mixer tried too hard to keep the surrounds discrete. They put crowd noise in them but it is totally uncorrelated noise... it sounds fake as it all doesn't mesh together in the rear. It sounds like I have the crowd in a group on the rear right and rear left. By downmixing it to 2 channel then playing it back in L7 the surrounds are less 'discrete' and it actually improves the experience as the crown noise 'surround' actually does surround you as it would at the event.

Shawn

 

[RAF]

Shawn,

Thanks for the information on the Logic7 encoded discs. And I also find it interesting that DPL2 is also an encoding format as well as a decoding format, unlike DPL. I would assume that some of the advantages of this encoding mode might be applicable to situations like those you and Scott were discussing a few posts earlier?

And, yes, I knew that DPL is not encoded on media, but thanks for the correction. I just got sloppy in my choice of words.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Robert,

"And I also find it interesting that DPL2 is also an encoding format as well as a decoding format, unlike DPL. I would assume that some of the advantages of this encoding mode might be applicable to situations like those you and Scott were discussing a few posts earlier? "

Assuming a processor is released that can take a DD/DTS source and encode it into DPLII with the same sort of controls that L7 encoding gives you.

AFAIK that doesn't exist right now.

Shawn

 

[Philip Brandes]

Hi Scott:

Are you saying that a Lex MC-1 (among others) will take, for example, a DD5.1 DVD soundtrack, and convert what is in those 5.1 channels into two channels for playback through the front left/right speakers only? Why would anyone want to do that?

One additional use for this feature is to use it with a Hi-Fi VCR or CD Recorder as a handy way around the long gaps in DVDs that feature isolated scores. You can make a Logic-7 downmixed recording of just the songs/musical portions, then play it back and the Lexicon will recreate the discrete channel info amazingly close to the original 5.1 mix. You could do this to make a recording of the 5.1 remixed Beatles songs on "Yellow Submarine," for example.

Cheers,

Philip Brandes

 

[RAF]

Shawn,

I was tinkering around with some LDs today (partially in response to you reminding me about the DPL/DPL2 comparison on such media) when I realized that there isn't a mode called "DPL" on the 950, per se. Coincidentally, a rough draft of the 950 manual arrived today for me to look over and in it are some things that lit up a lightbulb in my head.

Specifically, there is a PL2 EMUL mode that I assumed was some type of emulation (which I didn't particularly care for when going through all the modes originally). The manual, which I assume is correct, informed me that PL2 EMUL is actually the original DPL L+C+R processing with mono surround. So that's how you dial in DPL to compare with DPL2 on the 950. And, as you noted, in A/B comparisons there is no contest. DPL2 all the way. (My previous "comparison" was remembering how the LDs used to sound in DPL via the 5700 - not really an A/B comparison like this one.)

Speaking of which - DPL2 is so nice with LDs that I don't miss the lack of an RF input to accept my AC-3 from my LD player. Using the digital input processed with DPL2 or even one of the other modes like DPL2 CES is so much better than the straight digital feed that I can honestly say that I don't miss AC-3 on the LD titles I own. And, as mentioned before, my use of LDs (I'm embarassed to say) has fallen off substantially with all the new DVDs in my house. Pretty soon the DVDs will outnumber my 1776 LDs.

And, looking over some of the literature on the SMR site I see that there are compromises in a pre/pro when adding an RF input. Isn't this why Lexicon offers a separate AC-3 module so as not to compromise their pre/pro designs?

Thanks for all the information you have provided. It's discussions like this that keep me on my toes.

 

[Shawn Fogg]

"Isn't this why Lexicon offers a separate AC-3 module so as not to compromise their pre/pro designs? "

Yes, they didn't want to let RF into their processors to prevent it from contaminating their circuits. I'd assume it is the same reason why they have never put in a tuner either.

Shawn

 

[Scott-C]

Shawn and Philip: Thank you for those examples of why you would want to downmix to 2-channel and to use Logic7 encoding with the Lex. Makes sense to me now. In fact, the more I think about it, the handier that feature seems to me. That's a pretty slick feature.
RAF: your software collection is obscene (in a good way)!

 

[RAF]

your software collection is obscene

Scott_C,
Didn't someone once say "Software should be obscene and heard?" Just following orders.

 

[Scott-C]

Didn't someone once say "Software should be obscene and heard?" Just following orders.

First Socrates, then Plato, then Aristotle, now RAF, the Confucious of HTF! These retired guys have plenty of time for witty comebacks! Good one!