Is the Lexicon MC-1 the best sound processor? (1 Viewer)

[ChrisA]

quote: If you're looking for good room correction, there's no substituting for accoustical treatment. You can go to any Home Depot, spend $200 bucks on wood and 3" Roxsul noiseproof insulation. [/quote]
What? You think random addition of acoustical treatments without measurement is ok? And your only talking about insulation. You need to measure the room response and add things like RPG diffusers, helmholtz resonators, etc.. Playing randomly with insulation, and fabrics without measurements?
As far as the comments on the MC-12, someone informed me to its improvements. That is what I had suspected. The prior Lexion models were sorely lacking in bass management, and as I had suspected (in my earlier posts) is now improved. So it appears I could consider the Lexicon as a choice. Does the Lexicon MC12 offer Balanced outputs? That is a requirement for me since I run long interconnects and use only 7 inches of speaker wire (due to the use of seven Bryston 7BST monoblocks). Again, please realize that I am not here to put down the MC12, only the prior Lexicon models which were lacking in bass management.
quote: Denying yourself the opportunity to use one the best digital processors is truly a shame especially in light of the fact your reluctance is based on something which will have very little effect on the final outcome of what it does so beautifully [/quote]
Trust me, I'm not missing anything. Not only that, pretty soon the 861 will have its new software and upgrades which will allow totaly digital DVD-Audio from a digital output and digital input on the 861.
It is nice to see that Lexicon no longer has issues with bass management with the MC12.
By the way, I have never argued against the ability to set different crossover points. It could be helpful to some people. I personally do not need that feature because I use the same 5 speakers all the way around. But for those who do not or cannot follow the gold standard of using symmetrical speakers all the way around, I agree that the ability to set different crossover points for various speakers could use such a feature.
Also, if the Lexicon can indeed set the low pass at say 50 Hz and the HP for the same set of speakers to 60 Hz, then congrats to Lexicon MC12. That to me is important in that it can help as a tool with room mode optimization and achieving a flatter overall response. I imagine Meridian will come out with an upgrade to allow those features as well.
Please remember that I nowhere have atttacked the MC-12. I have attacked prior Lexicn models, and assummed correctly that the MC12 would have had to have improved its bass management.
Bass management tools are important to produce flat in room response. Room measuring equipment and real room treatments designed and based on what the actual measurments of the specific room are important.
"Bass Enhance" Marketing as law! Bass reproduction has many different takes. The physics is more interesting than repeating info from marketing guides.
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[Edited last by ChrisA on October 06, 2001 at 05:32 PM]

 

[Gary Rhine]

And not once, have I even mentioned Logic 7.....

You should. Nothing else comes close on 5.1 sources.
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Gary J. Rhine
My Home Theater

 

[ChrisA]

Oh Please.
Nothing else comes close? I guess Meridian 7.1 sounds like a wax cylinder with rust on it
OTOH, I wonder what Algorithm Theta uses to derive its side channels?
(I know I am excited to hear the Chesky 2+2+2 DVD-A on the
800/861).
I'm curious to see the new Levinson processor as well. I thnk it will retail for $30,000-$40,000. Sheeze!
Has anyone purchased the Integra Research Processor yet?
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[Edited last by ChrisA on October 06, 2001 at 05:39 PM]

 

[Shawn Fogg]

Chris,
" the Lexicon MC12 offer Balanced outputs?"
No, but the MC-12B does.
"By the way, I have not argued against the ability to set different crossover point"
Really? You have responded to others that have pointed out that ability as being 'lame' and that:
"if a person has enough money to buy a Lexicon processor, they should have speakers all the way around that should handle 80 Hz crossover points fine."
Again argueing for a single crossover point.
"Again, please realize that I am not here to put down the MC12"
You said the following without even knowing the most basic features of the MC-12:
"Cassablanca/Cassanova 2, since you mentioned it, would be my preference over the MC-12. Meridian is my favorite."
"If th Lexicon can indeed set the low pass at say 50 Hz and the HP for the same set of speakers to 60 Hz, then congrats to Lexicon MC12. Considering the price, they would have to perform like the others."
You can. Like the MC-1, DC-2 and DC-1 you set the crossovers independantly for
L/R
center
sides
rears
and L/R sub
In the MC-1,DC-2 and DC-1 they don't have L/R sub outputs just the single sub out.
" Meridian will come out with an upgrade to allow those features as well."
Considering the price they should have had that feature years ago. The DC-1 has had it since 1995.
""Bass Enhance" Marketing as law! Bass reproduction has many different takes. The physics is more interesting than repeating info from marketing guides. "
Actually, its the psychoacoustics (perception of sound) that are more interesting. So please, since you think 'Bass Enhance' is nothing but marketing explain to me what it does and why you don't think it is needed? Have you ever even heard it in action? I'm betting you haven't.
Shawn

 

[ChrisA]

Really? You have responded to others that have pointed out that ability as being 'lame' and that:
"if a person has enough money to buy a Lexicon processor, they should have speakers all the way around that should handle 80 Hz crossover points fine."
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And how does that argue against having the ability to set crossover points independently? Somebody may want to set the front crossover points at 50-60 Hz, and the rear speakers, which cannot as much bass info, to say 80 Hz. Even a nice 2-way bookshelf speaker can handle a forth order 80 Hz crossover point. What kind of speaker requires a 120 Hz crossover point? You are approaching the crossover point of a midrange driver Worse, most processors redirect the bass to the subwoofer at 120 Hz crossover point. Lots of 120 Hz info coming from a subwoofer is undesireable IMO.
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"If the Lexicon can indeed set the low pass at say 50 Hz and the HP for the same set of speakers to 60 Hz, then congrats to Lexicon MC12. Considering the price, they would have to perform like the others."
You can. Like the MC-1, DC-2 and DC-1 you set the crossovers independantly for
L/R
center
sides
rears
and L/R sub

That is not what I asked. Setting the high pass and low pass independantly is MORE than just being able to set the crossovers independently. With Theta, you can not only pick say 60 Hz for the mains and 80 Hz for the rears. You can pick the HP for the mains at 60 Hz and the Low Pass for the subs for those channels at say 50 Hz. You could then also pick the slopes differently as well... extremely customizeable.
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[ChrisA]

Actually, its the psychoacoustics (perception of sound) that are more interesting. So please, since you think 'Bass Enhance' is nothing but marketing explain to me what it does and why you don't think it is needed? Have you ever even heard it in action? I'm betting you haven't.

Thank-you for the explantion of psychoacoustics

I have read about the bass enhance feature and his theories, which require positioning of the subwoofers to sides of the listening position. Sure it is intriguing, but so is the overall picture, including room modes. My point is that I'm not easily swept away by marketing hype. If you think the Bass Enhance feature is truly innovative and something all pther processors are lacking, well then of course that is your opinion. I try to keep auditioning new pieces all the time, but I have to admit that once I got the 861, I've lost interest in trying to listen to new processors. I'm more concerned with getting some Chesky DVD-A, Telarc DVD-A, etc... as well as getting DD and DTS upsampled to 24/96! The new Meridian upgrades on the 800 and 861 are really exciting. I can't wait to see the new software upgrade.
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[Shawn Fogg]

"What kind of speaker requires a 120 Hz crossover point?"
For Bass Enhance it is recommended to use the 120hz crossover point on the center channel to maximize the material BE has to work with. Reproducing bass from the middle of the room (where most centers are positioned) is just asking for greater room problems since you now have both sides walls the same distance from the driver, it also minimizes ITD in the bass which contributes to the 'in the head' response.
" Worse, most processors redirect the bass to the subwoofer at 120 Hz crossover point. Lots of 120 Hz info coming from a subwoofer is undesireable IMO."
Irrelevant on the Lexicon. The MC-1 would redirect the bass to the speakers with a lower crossover point.
"especially considering the massive upgrade occuring within the next month or two!"
The one that was due last Spring? Meridian has big plans for the 861 but the hardware/software upgrade is long overdue.
"Somebody at Theta told me that it is not a true differential balanced output... or so Theta claims."
Absolutely true, since Lexicon's opinion is that a 'true differential balanced output' looses the whole point of running dual differential dacs in the first place. That being maximizing the S/N ratio of the DACs. They sum the output of their dual differential dacs right at their output, then pipe the signal through the volume control. From there it goes to the single ended outputs and on the MC-12B to the balanced line drivers. The MC-12 runs dual differential dacs too.
To do it the other way... IE run one dac to the + leg and the other dac to the - leg of a balanced connection is bad engineering and doesn't maximize the S/N ratio. Any difference between the two signal paths and their dual volume controls results in less of a CMNR when the two signals are finally summed.
http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Lexicon/mc12/qa1.html
"OF course I rember Somebody tring to say that about Bryston amps also... so whatever."
Probably true too, Bryston knows what they are doing. Those that aruge the other way have been taken by 'popular marketing hype.'
"Setting the high pass and low pass independantly is MORE than just being able to set the crossovers independently. With Theta, you can not only pick say 60 Hz for the mains and 80 Hz for the rears. You can pick the HP for the mains at 60 Hz and the Low Pass for the subs for those channels at say 50 Hz."
That is the same thing.
If you wanted to do this on the MC-12 yet would set
L/R at 60hz
Rears at 80hz
Sides where-ever
Center where-ever
L/R sub at 50hz
"I have read about the bass enhance feature and his theories"
Which translates into 'No, I haven't heard it.'
"which require positioning of the subwoofers to sides of the listening position."
Actually, it doesn't require it. It is room dependant. It can also work with subs up front in each corner... or a sub in the front and a sub in the rear...etc...etc.. To the sides works best for long narrow rooms. It also doesn't actually need subs... just speakers capable of bass reproduction to around 40hz. Which is why Lexicon added that crossover point when they introduced BE on DC-1 V3 software.
" I'm more concerned with getting some Chesky DVD-A, Telarc DVD-A, etc..."
The MC-12 will handle them. It gives you the option of an analog bypass or applying high quality 24/96 A/Ds to the signal for full time alignment and bass management as well as other processing. When a digital output is standardized the MC-12 can easily be expanded to handle it. It has space on the rear for new connections and has the ability to have at least another dozen SHARCs added to it (in addition to the 4 it already has) if it needs further processing power.
"as well as getting DD and DTS upsampled to 24/96! "
IMO, there are extremely questionable sonic benefits of that. BTW, the MC-12 can support all channels at 24/96.
I'm much more excitied by Lexicon taking advantage of the four mic inputs on the rear of the MC-12.
Shawn

 

[Herb Kane]

"You need to measure the room response and add things like RPG diffusers, helmholtz resonators, etc.. Playing randomly with insulation, and fabrics without measurements?" THAT'S SHABBY....
"That's shabby", was obviously what was edited, so I'll re-enter it for you.
No, I don't think it is. It is a good starting point for rooms with issues. Those will be mainly determined by the ears, not by crunching stats or specs. If more emphasis was put on room treatments rather than worrying about which processors allow single Hz crossover increments, I believe many would be pleasantly surprised with the improvements.
No, shabby is spending 10 grand extra on a processor to handle bass management issues, which obviously supercede the importance of what the medium being played, sounds like. Simply put, how does it sound? Hmm, ears again, not specs.
No, shabby is criticizing other pieces of equipment with little or no facts and then spending the afternoon trying to compare apples to oranges while doing so (to clarify, not that I feel the MC-1 is inferior, just not on the same level pricewise). Again for 17 grand, it outta come with the features you're looking forward to.... perhaps even a few that the MC-1 already have.
Gotta run.... the new Jurassic Park arrived yesterday and I have some viewing to do.... oh yes, in DTS Logic 7. There, I said it (was that one of the pending upgrades...?).
Herb.
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[Bill Lucas]

Herb,
Have you priced Meridian? A 568 at full list price is $6495. Hardly 2-3 times the cost of a $5000 processor and significantly less than the MC-12. The 568 is generally regarded as the sonic equal of the 861. Have you listened to Meridian? Trifield is (arguably) as good as it gets when it comes to multi-channel nusic reproduction. Lexicon and Meridian are certainly the leaders when it comes to multi-channel music.
Your definition of "shabby" was "No, shabby is criticizing other pieces of equipment with little or no facts and then spending the afternoon trying to compare apples to oranges while doing so (to clarify, not that I feel the MC-1 is inferior, just not on the same level pricewise). Again for 17 grand, it outta come with the features you're looking forward to.... perhaps even a few that the MC-1 already have."
Perhaps you should get the facts straight on the Meridian processors.

 

[Herb Kane]

Bill:
"Have you priced Meridian? A 568 at full list price is $6495. Hardly 2-3 times the cost of a $5000 processor and significantly less than the MC-12. The 568 is generally regarded as the sonic equal of the 861. Have you listened to Meridian? Trifield is (arguably) as good as it gets when it comes to multi-channel nusic reproduction. Lexicon and Meridian are certainly the leaders when it comes to multi-channel music.
Yes I have. It was one of three on the short list when I eventually made my final decision (as was the Proceed, in fact).
"Perhaps you should get the facts straight on the Meridian processors."
With all due respect, if you spend some time re-reading the page (page 3 in fact) you'll see there are four references to Chris quoting specific model numbers (Meridian 861). I'll make it easy for you; Responses 11, 13, 15 and 16 on page 3. So, in light of the specific model number quoted we are talking two to three times the difference. I think I did get my facts straight!!!
Herb.
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[ChrisA]

Herb also doesn't seem to realize that Helmholtz resonators and RPG diffusers are room treatments designed to naturally smooth the room response. My entire argument this entire time has been the criticism of prior Lexicon processors, and already admitted that I hadn't even checked out the MC-12, which indeed seems like the first processor from Lexicon that I could actually entertain using for myself.
And again, my entire argument is acknowledging just how tricky it is to achieve an ideal in room response. I have consistently stated that it is necessary to measure the room to analyze room modes and the acoustics of the room before using room treatments. Playing with sound proofing and insulation is nice but isn't going to do what an RPG diffuser (or similar) is going to do, nor is it going to do what a Helmholtz resonator is going to do. You have to measure the room to use the room treatments successfully.
Good bass management is just another important tool in which one can help optimize the acoustics of the room. It is not overrated to those who want ultimate performance and know how to take andvantage of these tools. It might be overrated to someone who doesn't care to measure and optimize their room perhaps. Room treatments in conjunction with flexible and powerful bass management tools are desireable in achieving a smooth and optimal listening environment.
The Lexicon MC-12 again sound like a nice piece. I admit that now that I have a Meridian 861, with an 800 on the way I look forward to (From Frank in the Meridian Forum):
Upgrades
861.3 Surround Processor
The 861 is getting a new processor – a Motorola 56367 running at 150Mhz – which provides approximately 500 MIPS of computational power. Up to eight processors can be added in the future. It has significant excess capacity so that new features can be added for the foreseeable future without the need for a further upgrade.
They said that one reason for the delay in introducing the room correction board was that the existing processor was insufficient. Although they gave no definite time for the introduction of the room correction board, they are now in a position from a hardware standpoint to do so.
In connection with the new processor, all of the software has been rewritten with new algorithms in 48-bit precision. You will now be able to playback 96kHz in all eight channels (7.1) (both native and upsampled). Playback at 192kHz can be implemented in the future as well.
There will be a new digital input card, which can be configured as 2 six-channel inputs or any combination of multi-channel and stereo inputs.
There also will be a new analogue input card, which can be configured as 2 six-channel inputs or any combination of multi-channel and stereo inputs. This card will be available in both a single-ended (RCA) and balanced (XLR) version. It will have “extremely high quality” analog to digital conversion. Presumably this will be the optimal card for both stereo and multi-channel SACD input.
Finally, there will be new analog output cards utilizing 192/24 DACs.
800.3 CD/DVD Player
The 800 will also have significant upgrades. In addition to improvements in the audio and video performance, there will be better on-screen display and navigation. The 800 will be available in two configurations – two channel or six channel. There will be cards for AC-3 and DTS, so that you will not need to have an 861 if you do not want or need the extra features the 861 provides. A multi-channel 800 and DSP speakers will provide a core system. However, if you have an 800 with the on-board decoders and feed it to an 861, you can listen to upsampled DD and DTS (24/96 (24/192 in the future)in all channels!
The time frame for the 800.3 and 861.3 upgrades is this Novemeber, only one month away.
568 and 596
The 568 will be getting the same new processor as the 861, and thus will be able to handle DVD-A and upsampling in eight channels. The 596 will be upgradeable to DVD-A as well. The digital DVD-A interface for the 568 and 596 has not been determined however. There are a couple of options they are considering. I do not believe they gave a firm date for the 568 and 596 upgrades. CES might be a good time to expect an announcement. Again, they asked us to be patient.
Certainly, within a month perhaps two, the 800/861 will be utilizing a pure digital pathway... NO extra A/D -> D/A step as required by other processors. I don't expect Lexicon or Theta, or many processors to develop both a proprietary as well as standard digital DVD-A pathway. I suspect most ifnot all other manufacturers will wait for a standard digital DVD-A pathway before making it available. Nonetheless, the creators of MLP,DVD-A are Meridian, and there dejittering and processing is second to none. When a standardized format is available for DVD-A, they will have that as well.
I'm curious to see what the Levinson processor offers.
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[ChrisA]

Here is something you might find useful:
What Software/Hardware Do You Use to Measure Your Listening Room?
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I Use both LAud & the Behringer Ultracurve 8024 RTA & graphic EQ.
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I was just wondering what software and hardware people here use to measure the acoustics of their listening room and if somebody could sum up the advantages/disadvantages of what is all available...
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The advantages of the Behringer is that it works in real-time, and the measurement microphone can be any high quality condenser as the XLR mic input is phantom powered. The disadvantage is that it will not graphically represent waterfall, but only one-third octave. For more info see this Behringer review by Thorsten Loesch;
http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/eq...ringer8024.htm
LAUD advantage is that it is a defacto standard with many many uses, but is difficult to set up as the Fiji cards are hard to find, it only runs well on Windows 95, and if you are not a computer genius (Windows) as well as an electrical engineer, the instruction manual can be quite
incomprehensible.
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How many people here use devices like RPG diffusers and Helmoholtz resonators to achieve good room response?
I use eight home brew Helmoholtz resonators, built into and behind the walls & corners and ceiling of my small listening room. Bass in my room is NOT boomy...
BTW, I use Strike's BassZone test CD as a signal source for above. I literally wore out my first copy using it to EQ my listening room.
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P.S.
Here is a SMALL EXCERPT from
http://enjoythemusic.com/magazine/eq...ringer8024.htm
It is very good reading:

The listening room - Enemy mine?
Now, let's for a moment just assume that you own a pair of speakers that will deliver a perfectly flat frequency response from 20Hz - 20kHz (not that such exist, but just for fun lets assume). Now we take these perfect speakers and place them carefully, with loads of tuning and care in our dedicated listening room. Then we fill this as much expensive room treatment as we can afford and sit down to listen, in our comfy chair in around 3m distance. Do we now get 20Hz - 20kHz flat? You gotta be kidding buddy.
Now in case you have been reading the late lamented "Audio" Magazine you already know what I'm driving at. If not, I'm looking here at Audio January 1999, at the review of a pretty respectable Satellite Subwoofer system, capable easily of a frequency response of +/-3db between 20Hz and 20kHz in the anechoic chamber owned by the reviewer. However, the Reviewer, Mr. D.B. Keele JR had the habit of also printing the response of the reviewed speaker in his listening room, at 3m distance.
Looking at this graph is a revelation. Printed only above 100Hz we see series of major dips and peaks to the tune of as much as +12db and -20db compared to the overall mean SPL Level of 80db. If Mr. Keele had included the sub 100Hz response the graph would have been WAY OF SCALE. If you are interested in the room resonance's of a real room (from my cyber buddy Brian Steele on Grenada) click here for their website. Can you imagine what a 24db Peak at 66Hz sounds like....
So, after we have placed our perfect speaker into a normal room the perfect Frequency response of our perfect speaker is so FUBAR (Fu

 

[Herb Kane]

Chris:
Regarding the accoustical treatments, you initially mentioned the fact that you were looking forward to being able to correct certain room issues via digital means. I simply made a general comment on how one could "start" working on room issues for very little expense. For ten grand above and beyond the cost of the MC-1, I can do an awful lot of room correction, with money to spare. The point being; I don't believe enough emphasis is placed on the importance on the sound quality of the room. The average (and stress the word average) enthusiast, can spend $1000 bucks and do wonders to improve their room. Period.
As for the very thorough and complete thesis on Meridian, I thank you. It was very informative, perhaps even galvanizing. But, I am not the one who posted looking for info on Lexicon.... Poor Ben is the one wading through this plethora of superfluous data. I don't know if you're trying to convince him or yourself (buyer's compunction perhaps) on the product. As I have said and heard many times in the past, if you're happy with it, that's all that matters.
Couple of points I want to reiterate. Never, did I belittle any product here (or ANY previous post in the past here or at any other forum). I don't think it's very productive, it's not very classy and it's not my style. What I did attempt to do ad infinitum, is come to the rescue of a product which was being labelled unfairly (certainly IMO) as "outdated". I heard comments describing the appearance of it's faceplate, poor bass management etc. which I simply don't agree with. If there was basis for legitimate claims ie. new mainstream industry formats which weren't compatable, then I'd say OK, fine. So far that isn't the case. And again to clarify DPLII isn't really an issue with Logic 7, and multi channel music is not a priority to me. As I said in one of my earlier posts, people who purchase this piece, do so with their main focus on HT (at least it should be). If you're focus is 2 channel, you should be looking at Hovland (which is amazing BTW) or something along those lines. If your processor does both well, great!
Finally, I submit the following with alacrity. I made a statement whereby I stood (an still do) that I do not feel the MC-1 is lacking for much at it's pricepoint. Are the other processors mentioned, superior at twice or even three times the price? I certainly hope so. Do I think the MC-1 is inferior when it comes to doing what it was intended to do. Nope. There have been a lot of specs and stats thrown around, in fact more stats than a Cooperstown induction. What I haven't heard is a lot comments on those critical of the unit who have quite simply dropped in a DVD and "listened" to it. Again, if you're critical of the unit because you don't like the way it sounds or performs, that's fine. But to be critical of it because something else shows better in a brochure or has a few options which aren't entirely necessary, isn't very purposeful.
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