Is 4K Blu-Ray in your future? (1 Viewer)

[Kevin Collins]

In other topic areas we have been debating the viability of 4K. One of my top plates on adopting the format would be if the BDA would modify / change the specification to allow for a Blu-Ray 4K standard. The task force that is driving this is made up of 17 companies including Sony, Technicolor, Dolby, Fox and Disney. In talking with my friends in the standards bodies, they had told me that the BDA was mulling this around, particularly given the studios interest in providing yet another reason for us to purchase the same movie over again...

Days ago the BDA confirmed that they are going to have a specification for 4K Blu-ray discs. Victor Matsuda, Vice-president of the BDA discussed this with the Hollywood reporter on 1/10/14.

Right now the companies are debating on what codec will be used for the new format. Of course, this means a new set of BD players for those that want to enjoy 4K, 3D and regular BD --- so good news for those manufacturers. The question is how much will those players start at and how many titles will be available when it launches?

What probably the most disappointing is that actual discs are not targeted to come out until holiday of 2015! By that time there are a lot of other technologies that could upend the optical disc foothold -- namely streaming. Now there seems to be some debate about this as the Hollywood Reporter stated that BD 4K discs could be out by the end of this year. Someone got the year wrong and I will try to find the truth with my friends that are actually in the BDA.

There is also rumor that DECE would be preparing for 4K. What that actually means is beyond me as they still don't have a solution for supporting 1080P content in the same quality as what is on the disc. So, I'm failing to see how DECE "supports" 4K.

Furthermore, in another thread where we are talking about 4K, there needs to be a lot more to the standard than just resolution. An increased color gamut, greater color bit-depth and 4:4:4 are really required to make a noticeable difference from the existing 1080 Blu-ray standard. The Hollywood Reporter also stated that DECE is pushing for this, but if it doesn't go through SMPTE as a standard, it won't be a standard that UHD TV makers will abide by and then there will be various implementations that will just make a mess of all of this. Also, remember the Disney is not a member of DECE which has 85 members, so if this isn't through SMPTE, then you can already see where there would be disparities.

Let's hope that all of those are making their way into the standard and that display manufacturers also adopt the same standards for their 4K UHD TV's.

How many will go out and buy a new 4K BD player and also buy new 4K titles or replace existing 1080P titles?

 

[mattCR]

I don't know if I would.. maybe. We are still finishing out our home theater, but I finally - after some input from here - put in the projector I wanted, the Sony 600ES. It's 4K, but it comes with a 'puck', which is a digital device that already has 4K movies and you can get more from Sony (I think). I could see this as being more viable then Blu-Ray, but I would prefer a BD format that could do this.

BDXL is an accepted standard (100Gb discs) which would handle 4K content I believe. 4K is a big difference; I wasn't expecting it to be at first, but it really is, especially on the demonstration titles they provide. I'm betting a lot of the people who invest in 4K would be interested in a 4K BD player.. but I don't know if something else comes first

 

[Keith Cobby]

I have a Panasonic plasma and blu-ray player. Within the next 12 months I intend to buy a 3-D projector and 3-D blu-ray player. I am not an 'early adopter'!

I am buying approximately 10% of blu-ray titles compared to DVD due to my main interest in older titles many of which have not yet been released on blu-ray. I doubt that very many of my favourite titles would be released on 4K at least not as quickly as I would like.

However I want the very best possible image quality and would therefore upgrade to 4K in due course, when things have settled down, hopefully without a repeat of the blu/HD competition.

 

[Ed Lachmann]

As Keith noted, I'd love to see old favorites made available in 4K, but the studios have next to no interest in making the vast majority of their classic films available in BD form. I'd imagine we'll see GONE WITH THE WIND, CASABLANCA and THE WIZARD OF OZ in 4K someday. Wouldn't hope for much more than that, however. Sad situation, really!

 

[Brandon Conway]

I figure I will eventually buy equipment that is 4K (tv, player), but I won't be going out of my way to upgrade. I just don't see enough of a quality jump difference overall for me to invest in it at home.

 

[TravisR]

How many will go out and buy a new 4K BD player and also buy new 4K titles or replace existing 1080P titles?

Not until the price massively drops on the TVs and 4K becomes the standard so I guess I'm saying I'll start buying 4K content in about 10 or 20 years.

I have NO faith that studios will continue to release 4K discs because I think they'll put out a handful of movies (which will be average, dumb action pictures) in 4K and they'll tank (due in large part to the extremely small number of people with 4K TVs). At that point, the studios will say that no one is interested in 4K, wipe their hands of it all together and try pushing downloads or streaming as the way to make money.

 

[Steve Tannehill]

I upgraded my home theater to a 73-inch DLP 3D set in 2011 and I expect that to last for years. That leaves the downstairs TV which is older and smaller. I might get 4K when that TV dies. I was hoping that Apple would enter the TV market by then. But I am not going out of my way to get into 4K. 1080p is fine for me now.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

I'm considering a full-blown HT room when my wife and I are in the market for a house. Obviously I'm leaning toward projection of some sort, but would like to go passive for 3D content. When I look at the possibility of 4K, the cost is a little too high for my taste, especially based on a cost benefit analysis. As suggested earlier, if 4K hopes to succeed as a home format, CE manufacturers will need to up their game re:colour gamut and colour bit depth, to make the experience worth plunking down a substantial amount. If I were to base my adoption of 4K on prior experience in adopting DVD, HD and Blu-ray, I'd be looking about 3 yrs down the road at least.

 

[DavidJ]

My current home has no room for a dedicated home theater room, but I may go ahead and put a front projector in my living room anyway. I will probably wait and save a bit to make the move to a 4K projector. Then I will be interested in 4K Blu-ray.

 

[MatthewA]

It is going to take a lot of price cutting and a lot of movies available before I upgrade to 4K. And how many TV production companies who did post-production in 1080p are going to end up wishing they had future-proofed their shows?

That's why I wish film and digital could have co-existed peacefully.

 

[Ethan Riley]

So are we saying that TV will start broadcasting in 4k?

 

[Geoff_D]

Well, I've got a 4K TV, so I damned well want my 4K Blu-ray and I wants it now, precious.

Heck, I've upgraded so many films so many times that I almost look forward to the next product cycle to see what benefits it'll bring. VHS, LD, DVD, DVHS, HD DVD, Blu-ray, they have all been welcomed into my home (and some of them have yet to leave!). I've never, ever had a problem selling on old software (and indeed hardware) so when 4K Blu-ray comes along I'll get right on it, yessir.

 

[Adam Gregorich]

I don't plan on upgrading anything that I have on blu-ray unless it was problematic (My Fair Lady, etc). I might consider purchasing new titles in 4K, but of course I would have to replace the five or six BD players I have....

 

[ROclockCK]

We see evidence every month that some of the best (as in most desirable) classic catalogue titles are maxing out in 1080p on Blu-ray...their increased resolution already revealing more photo-chemical flaws than ever visible before. I mean, let's face it, there is simply a practical limit to how much further you can take many of these older films...especially those with lost/damaged original negatives, and/or scads of duped footage and opticals throughout...

Even for those vintage titles where full recovery is possible at 4k, what will be the cost vs. benefit vs. reward for studios affording them such treatment? Will consumers who already whinge and balk over spending $30 bucks for 1080p releases of niche/obscure catalogue on Blu-ray, suddenly be racing en masse to plunk down $50+ for premium 2160p versions via 4k delivery (whatever form that takes)? Amongst Home Theatre Forum members, especially those with 100" plus projection systems, that resolution and colorspace boost will probably be enough of a carrot to justify the premium price hit, but for the wider consumer home video market? According to almost any source and range of market data you care to crunch, the sad fact is we are now 8 years into the Blu-ray era, and John, Jane, Jack, and Jill Doe are still largely satisfied with their upscaled DVDs, or increasingly convenient 'good enough' options via faux-HD streaming.

No doubt 4k will provide a comfortable hand-in-glove fit for new movies able to take advantage of end-to-end 4k workflow, with some potentially dazzling DCP-class presentations possible for the home. But for a vintage 50 to 70 year old 'Scope or Technicolor picture already having a tough enough time getting an HD upgrade because of restoration limitations (lost/damaged/deteriorated original negs) and/or remastering costs ($75k-100k, up to $1m), what hope will we likely have for 4k releases of many vintage classics...I mean, beyond the handful of 'usual suspects'? Or movies that have already been rescanned at 4k for 1080p delivery?

From where I sit on this issue, I assume that my next player and monitor will both have 4k capability...and I might even (likely will) purchase a handful of new movies in 4k which take full advantage of that increased native resolution. I also assume that said hardware will do a bitchin' job of upscaling my treasured collection of classic 1080p Blu-rays, many of which might not - by virtue of the condition of their surviving elements - ever be able to look much better even in 4k. With many of these titles, I strongly suspect we've already reached the tipping point where the law of diminishing returns sets in...whatever benefits would be gained from a 4k disc or stream will be minor at best, and come at a considerably higher cost, with much stricter DRM for personal, secondary fair use.

 

[Kevin EK]

I have no intention of picking up a 4K HDTV at this point. I'm quite happy with my 65" Panasonic. At that size, 4K wouldn't make any perceptible difference in the picture quality. The one use I can see for it would be in the implementation of glasses-free 3D, and that's still years out.

 

[AnthonyClarke]

I think that ROclockCK has summed it up perfectly. T he sort of Blu ray material I'm interested in is unlikely to be ever part of a 4k strategy except for a few examples such as Casablanca, Wizard of Oz and so forth. I can't see Truffaut or Rohmer having a 4k future .. and Hitchcock transfers are problematic enough already!
I'll stick with the existing technology for my home cinema projector set-up. The only 'new' technology I'll be adopting is Blu ray audio, which piggy-backs nicely onto the existing system with no new hardware needed at all.

 

[Persianimmortal]

4K HDTV - Yes, if and when OLED becomes available at a reasonable price and size. I have no interest in a 4K LCD TV right now. When my current plasma TV dies, I'll be in a real dilemma if OLED isn't affordable.

4K Blu-ray Player - I'll get a 4K Blu-ray player at some point, if only because it's likely 2K Blu-ray players may be phased out of production in a few years, and when my current 2K BD player dies, a 4K-capable BD player will be used to play my 2K Blu-rays.

4K movies - As ROclockCK says, there will be diminishing returns for many classic titles, especially at standard screen sizes, such that I'm unlikely to want to rebuy most of my classic 2K Blu-ray movies in 4K. Never say never however, because as Kevin points out, the color enhancements of 4K - if handled correctly - might make it too tempting for most of us to ignore 4K movies.

But 4K Blu-ray movie discs? That's the real issue. As I've argued in the other 4K Blu-ray thread, I just don't see much back catalog content being released on the 4K Blu-ray disc format. It just isn't going to happen.

So for me, I envisage it'll be a mix-and-match library of primarily 2K Blu-rays for most standard catalog titles, 4K Blu-ray disc for a few of the high profile catalog titles that will benefit most from 4K, combined with a media hub holding downloaded 4K digital titles that are never going to see a disc release. In fact, I foresee that in 5-10 years' time, I'll probably store all of my movies, disc or no disc, on a media hub of some kind anyway.

 

[vidiot33]

I really don't think it makes much sense to jump in early. Supply of good discs will be low for a number of years and display prices will be high. Also, to see a meaningful difference between 1080p and 4K will require a large screen, such as from a front projector. I'm fine with 1080P until 4 K is sanely priced, any early issues are resolved and there's lots of good stuff to watch...

 

[Kevin Collins]

I think that ROclockCK has summed it up perfectly. T he sort of Blu ray material I'm interested in is unlikely to be ever part of a 4k strategy except for a few examples such as Casablanca, Wizard of Oz and so forth. I can't see Truffaut or Rohmer having a 4k future .. and Hitchcock transfers are problematic enough already!
I'll stick with the existing technology for my home cinema projector set-up. The only 'new' technology I'll be adopting is Blu ray audio, which piggy-backs nicely onto the existing system with no new hardware needed at all.

I suspect that the studios will stick to new releases for 4K. Outside of the issues listed above, I don't know if the studios will feel that there is enough of a a market for catalog titles to go and rescan those from 2K to 4K.

 

[ROclockCK]

So for me, I envisage it'll be a mix-and-match library of primarily 2K Blu-rays for most standard catalog titles, 4K Blu-ray disc for a few of the high profile catalog titles that will benefit most from 4K, combined with a media hub holding downloaded 4K digital titles that are never going to see a disc release. In fact, I foresee that in 5-10 years' time, I'll probably store all of my movies, disc or no disc, on a media hub of some kind anyway.

I'm envisioning a similar mix Koroush, with only select acquisition of 4k content when natively produced and maintained end-to-end throughout the workflow. For everything else, I'm comfortable with 2k to 4k upscaling...at least for the kind of vintage content I'm interested in, at the scale I will most likely be viewing it (@ 65").

I don't need a bigger carrot for 4k...I just need a bigger screen and room*.

* ...which becomes less and less likely as I continue toward full retirement.