How do I "break-in" an amp? (1 Viewer)

[Saurav]

Chu,
Great post.

Usually we're happy. That is until we start reading about how what we bought is really the bottom rung of hi-fi and really not that much different from top of the line Denons or Yamahas or whatever. Then the circle moves again. Is that upgradeitis?

Interesting question. In my case, my desire to change components has progressively diminished as my system has progressed. Today, I'm pretty close to having the system I want for my allocated budget (just have to change the amp, preamp and speakers ). But seriously, I'm at a stage where I know that I'll need to make a major financial step up in all my components to really get any better sound. I'm quite satisfied with the sound I have for the money I've spent, and the next project or two have more to do with tailoring that sound more to my tastes, rather than improving anything. For instance, the new preamp I'll be building when the parts arrive will cost less than my current one.

 

[Chu Gai]

Now just think if you could build that perfect room now! The one with the dimensions that don't conform to 8' ceilings and maybe has acoustic batts inside the walls...with walls that are also sound attentuating. We do the best we can and then one day our 16 year old kid puts on some Limp Bizkit or whatever in our finally tuned systems, with the burned in amps, tweaked to the max, turns to us and says..."Now that's music Dad! Know what I mean?" Time to resurrect my old sansui!
Enjoy your project, I'm sure it'll give you great satisfaction and pride. Quite possibly though, the cost of your next significant upgrade will pale in comparison to the other half's cosmetic and shoe purchases

 

[Saurav]

Quite possibly though, the cost of your next significant upgrade will pale in comparison to the other half's cosmetic and shoe purchases

Heh, not in my case. I count my blessings every day

 

[Shawn C]

I have a friend that uses his Odyssey amps to power his Legacy Focus speakers.

To be perfectly honest, those amps sounded like absolute hell when he first hooked them up. Everything sounded very 'hollow' and lifeless.

He just left them on all the time and a few days later I went back over to his place and his system sounded COMPLETELY different. It was like night and day.

You don't necessarily have to have music running through them for the break-in but leave them plugged in and turned on.

I think the Legacy speakers had something to do with it as well. They are very revealing and probably over-emphasized how bad the amps were when first turned on.

That was when I was first convinced about the whole 'break-in' process. The Odyssey amps really did need them.

 

[Mark Austin]

Jaleel,

As a scientist, as someone who is a bit familiar with marketing psychology, my own personal philosophy is to endeavor to take it to the manufacturers.

Sometimes in the way you come across it seems like you think you're taking it to the manufacturers on this very board, instead of just regular enthusiasts. Meaning that I fully respect your desire to take it to the manufacturers, but none of them post here. You sometimes take your battle with them, and expect the posters here to provide proof for their(manufacturers) claims. Most people who share their experiences here don't have scientific proof of what they are saying. But, somehow without any scientific proof behind a possible claim that an enthusiast might make, then that experience is effectively diminished through typical bantor.

 

[Shane Martin]

You run into maybe people like me, who, while enjoying their own experience, seem to want to take that magic that you're experiencing and just take it down into DBT's

The problem i have with this is those people usually w/o me asking for that info like to throw that in. There is a word called tact and that is rarely used when people post "I heard a difference". The likely result of that thread is 2 or 3 atleast threadfarts mentioning You didn't hear one because your test was invalid or because YOu didn't level match yadda yadda. People just don't let people enjoy their gear regardless if the difference exists.

As far as the Stratos amp goes, a coworker bought one and leaves his on 100% of the time and did notice a difference in the sound. He is VERY happy with them.

 

[chung_sotheby]

Here is the ultimate way to break in an amp:
1. Buy fence cutter, ski mask, screwdriver set, lock picks, and isotoners
2. Go to hospital and steal one of those stethoscopes from a doctor
3. Using all the tools listed above, carefully undo every screw, bolt, hinge, and weld on your brand new Stratos
4. Marvel at how many pieces there really are.
Congradulations, you have now broken in your new amp

 

[Chu Gai]

Shawn, you may be well be correct but without knowing all the details its a tough call to make. But for the moment, let's grant Odyssey the benefit of the doubt and say they do in fact need a significant amount of time to break in. Going on that assumption, it would seem pretty reasonable to me to state that the designers of the product are well aware that their product requires break-in in order to achieve particular design goals of sound quality. Perhaps there is/are some component(s) whose properties exponentially decay or rise and this manifests itself as an audible change?

Odyssey's site says the following:

There are several factors that determine the extensive length of "break-in", such as charging of capacitors, establishing the electron flow on the PC board, cables, soldering joints, etc.

So although I personally fail how to see that any of this should take any significant time, let's grant that it occurs.

If it occurs, there must be some difference or differences in the signal at the speaker terminals as a result. Something to correlate or explain why we're hearing what we're hearing. Some possibilities come to my mind are:
a) the linearity of the frequency response is changing.
b) odd order harmonics are diminishing
c) even order harmonics are increasing

I'm sure there are other possible explanations. Personally I've asked Odyssey what's going on here. If two signals are identical in every way, then they will sound the same when compared A/B. If they're not, there may be an audible difference. I'm hoping I get an answer from one of the designers and not a p/r person who'll rehash the website. If I do, I'll publish the correspondence here.

 

[Chu Gai]

Mark...sometimes time permits a lengthy response or comment. This then allows one to state things tactfully or with some degree of care. Depends on my available time sometimes how my responses come across. A short response by a 'naysayer' is quite appropriate to other naysayers just as a short one from 'yeasayers' works for others of that persuasion. I take it to the manufacturers...oh yes I do. Manufacturer A says something that transcends advertising and its a claim, I call them on it. Right now I'm bitching with the people who make TR HotWing Sauce. The product's changed and I want to know why they increased the thickening agent content (a gum arabic...had it analyzed). Two bottles and the stuff comes out like a damned gel!!
I don't expect enthusiasts to provide proof. I believe there are certain ways to use instruments properly (SPL's), calibration and testing discs, and do comparisons. Actually they're pretty simple. Level match. Use a VOM. Don't have one? Buy one. The cost pales in comparison to a few grand on components.
I have no vested interest in proving the lack of audible differences. I have a vested interest in being rigorous and thorough. If that results in a finding of an audible difference, well fine!

 

[Doug_B]

Interesting. As I stated above, I did hear differences w the Stratos after a couple of weeks of "leaving it on and staying away". I also thought I heard some imaging suffer after I had to disconnect the power from it for an hour. I still don't buy into the various reasoning I've heard or read thus far to explain what I've heard, however.

As for the return period, Klaus is very flexible timewise if the amp continues not to sound right to you. As long as you are "honest" in your purchasing intent (e.g., not taking advantage of the return policy to do an amp shootout), Klaus will work with you. I have talked to him at length about this. He's perfectly aware, as was mentioned above, that a customer returning the amp is a lose situation for him.

Doug

 

[John Royster]

So long as Chu is posting non-sense so shall I; however, it shall be no non-sense.

All analog eletronics change with age (and digital for that matter). This is NOT disputed, cannot be disputed, will never be disputed because it is known measurable FACT. If they didn't change then transitors would never fail, capacitors would never lose their capacity and resistors would ceese to resist. But they do. FACT. All EEs learn this in 2nd semester analog circuitry if not first. FACT. proven with an oscope, proven with the caveman like VOM and proven in any lab over time. I severely question the education/training of anybody who disagrees with these statements. And NO I will not provide links to this because it is so simple as to not even warrant discussion.

So to the original poster "how do I break-in an amp?" Use it.

 

[Chu Gai]

I'm game John. I never stated that electronic components didn't change. I would think that a properly designed component such as an amplifier would have the ability to meet its design goals and maintain its specifications over time. This too is taught in circuit design, no?
This is an issue of audibility and what it could possibly be about about the signal that changes. So given that they do and given that Odyssey is probably a capable manufacturer and that they would not have any ulterior motive for a break-in period in excess of 6 weeks, what in your estimation would have to change about the signal coming out of the amp to cause such an audible and what some feel is a significantly audible effect? I think that's a pretty honest question. Take a swing at it.
Don't discount that things are done for a variety of reasons and that they also include maintaining a predictable profit.

 

[Craig_Kg]

As an EE, I agree with Chu. A good analog design is built to operate to certain specifications within a set of component tolerances. While components stay within those tolerances, the circuit operation stays within specification. Self compensation is often built in for small variations to allow for manufacturing tolerance. If components alter beyond their tolerances, the circuit then fails to perform to its specs. This should all be measurable.

For the components to change so much as to have a significant audible effect (which should be measurable) within such a short period as the stated burn in period is ridiculous. Once components have reached their stable operating temperature (which should take an hour or two at most) their characteristics will not change measurably (assuming they are of decent quality) for years unless the circuit is abused.

I have also come across the "loss of magic" attitude again and again when talking audio with people but never with people who build their own gear.

 

[Chu Gai]

Thanks Craig, but I'm not trying to marshall up forces to win an argument. Winning arguments is for lawyers and the truth doesn't always win. Hey you want to leave stuff on 24/7...no problem at all! I'm willing to concede the point (for the moment anyways) that this is indeed happening here and just looking to dig a bit deeper into the phenomena. Nor am I looking to step on people's toes. It may be that my curiousity extends deeper than others and I enjoy peeling back the layers until I arrive somewhere near the core. Yeah, I know, its a scientific approach but even a scientist stands back in amazement at the beauty of a diamond even with the knowledge that its made of good old carbon. Now I've already sent one email to Odyssey on 6/9 and received one reply 6/11. A reply to that was sent the same day since my questions weren't answered to my satisfaction. In the meantime, I wish owners of this product many years of satisfaction with it.

 

[Larry B]

As I've stated in the past, the simple way to settle this is to compare two equivalent units, one of which has been "broken in," the other of which has not. Otherwise, we are all arguing from first principles which in my experience, (1) often leads one down an incorrect path or (2) limits one's ability to discover that which was not previously known.
Larry
P.S. As you may be aware, Vladimir Lamm, one of the most respected amp designers of our day, bucks the trend by designing without listening. In other words, he is the ultimate measurer. He is able to do this (according to him) because he has developed such a sophisticated understanding of psychoacoustics that he knows which circuits will sound good. Yet, he too feels that his equipment requires breaking in. Perhaps we should send him an E-mail and ask him why this is so.

 

[Jason Kent]

I'm a bit confused on this.

A company DESIGNING an amp will have to KNOW what parameters are going to change if 'break-in' is a factor. So clearly they will be measurable, designable, defined.

I hope no one would be saying a DESIGNER of a high-end amp will just choose various components and then just assume the technical parameters will change in a DEFINITE way so that the desired final sound will appear after X hours/days/weeks?

Funny how I've never read or heard anything about this 'break-in' period discussed from a DESIGN viewpoint. As above - the designer MUST know IF break-in is a factor - otherwise - please continue the thought yourself.

 

[John Royster]

Chu,

I think I came across a little harsh. Sometimes happens when I get passionate.:b

And for sure each individual component is manufactered to operate within its individual tolerances. Together as a complete circuit/design as simple as an amplifier it wouldn't be too hard to run the numbers on the extremes of each spec.

But I think Larry's right. Until anybody actually listen to and hears the change it is pointless to debate.

I also believe you can't totally measure how we hear. Maybe the original poster can come back and tell us how that amp turns out?

 

[Jason Kent]

Funny how I've never read or heard anything about this 'break-in' period discussed from a DESIGN viewpoint. As above - the

Other than the above reference to Mr. Lamm - which actually does not refer to the phenomenon of 'break-in' except to imply that mr. Lamm without listening, etc. would know ahread of time how the various components would 'break-in' - if he indeed 'believes' in break-in.

 

[Chu Gai]

I ain't that good looking John, so please go easy on the passion. I'm not debating whether or not the sound changes. I'd need two amps and would have to send both back. However its a reasonable question to hit Odyssey with, don't you think? After all someone there has already determined that so I'm going to the source. I'll give Odyssey a week or so to respond and then I'll post the full text whatever dialog has been exchanged.
As far as Lamm goes maybe he listens, maybe he doesn't, maybe he has someone else listen. Creative copy interpretation upon my part Maybe he knows that one can run certain insrumental checks and that is good enough. I should be in Brooklyn sometime during the next week and I'll post back whatever I see or hear.

 

[John Royster]

sounds good. If you're interested run a google search on "stereo amplifier break in". You will be inundated with information.