Heavy == good... why? (1 Viewer)

[Stephan]

Hello there,
so this will be my first posting here at Home Theater Forum.
As you can see, I live in Germany- pretty far away from most of you.
I've been reading quite a few threads here, and HTF seems to be a place for high- level discussions. Let's see if I can contribute a bit to the great atmosphere here.
Ok, Topic- On:
I've just purchased the Sony DVP NS 900, and I can tell you that this unit has a perfect building quality considering the low price.
I really was annoyed of all these plastic- built units, like the Toshiba SD 510E (that's SD 5700) I had before.
I am one of those who see a close connection between building quality and sound quality.
Refering to picture quality- that's mainly a matter of a good drive, a good chipset and good Video- DACs.
But IMHO, sound quality has something to do with seperated audio circuits, a non-vibrating chassis and things like that.
I don't like this new generation of DVD- Players which have all the features you can think of packed in a cheap plastic chassis.
Certainly, a good building quality only doesn't say too much about the quality of the DVD Player itself- but for me, a high- quality DVD unit goes with a massive, solid chassis.
Regards,
Stephan
Edit: If I am making any serious faults in spelling, words etc.- please let me know! That's the only way to avoid them in the future.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Hey another slightly different comment on build quality.
I had a Nakamichi OMS-7AII CD player for the longest time. I loved that sucker. The entire player was made out of metal. Even the CD tray. The tray moved really slow too. Just really gave me the impression is was really well made and "precise." Good player too, BTW! One of the reasons why I like most Sony ES components.

 

[Mark Davenport]

I have a 47a and it is an exceptional piece for the price. Street price is 750$ not 1200$ or even 1000$ if you pay more than 750$ for this player you did not look hard enough and that is your fault.

I was initially put back buy the fact it was light and didn't seem built like a tank but that does not deter from what it does. I've had mine about 5 months now and am really happy with it in every way.

As a dvd player it's nearly flawless, as a cd player it's the best sounding one I've owned, as a DVD-A and SACD player it can stand against middle tiered stand alone players fairly well. considering all of this is done in one box I'm very impressed and very happy with my purchase. Yea it doesn't weigh 30 lbs but that simply does not detract from how good this player really is.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I hope the 47a treats us better than the older DV-05...
Lot's of comments about poor quality on www.audioreview.com . I've had one for about 2 years, and for the past 2 weeks, I've been having a problem with skipping CDs. I thought it was the CDs at first, but then when I tried to "replay" through the skipped portion, it was fine. So the player is slowly going bad. Have also had occasions where it makes a lot of noise too, and then other occasions where it won't recognize a disc. But most of the time it's fine.
It is also a really light player, and I really lke the performance, but if it falls apart, that's not so good.
I plan on pulling the trigger on a 47a (or depending if the 45a is out by then and what the differences are), end of Setp or so...

 

[Mark Davenport]

I had an old JVC cd player I bought in 1991. It was light as a feather and lasted 10 years until it started skipping whihc caused me to buy the 47a. Weight is not an all inclusive factor of quality. Although for my own piece of mind I tend to prefer really heavy equipment but it is just a mental preference.

 

[ReggieW]

Ditto on heavier equipment......
I just purchased a Denon DVD-1600 which weighs around eight pounds and thought initially that the audio quality would suffer only later to read nothing but raves regarding its audio capabilities. One review actually said that CD playback sounded significantly better than what one is usually accustomed to in a 500.00 DVD player, and that the DVD-A quality was among the best they've heard. I took the plunge on it instead of the twice as expensive and three times heavier DVD-3800, which is definitely a better unit, but costs much more. I have not taken delivery yet, but if it performs as the reviewers/owners have raved, I will be very happy.
Reg

 

[Ian Montgomerie]

But IMHO, sound quality has something to do with seperated audio circuits, a non-vibrating chassis and things like that.

Such details of audio circuitry will have some small impact on the performance of a player's analog output. Well, except for a "non-vibrating chassis" - as I've said before this is a non-factor in the normal living room and there are much better ways to damp vibration than lots of metal.

However - audiophiles, raise your hand who uses the analog output on your DVD player? The digital output of your multi-thousand-dollar "elite" player is not one whit better than the digital output of a popular mainstream player like the RP56.

 

[Phil Nichols]

Ian,
I use only the audio output from a Denon 3800 linked to a 58" Pio Elite PRTV and a 80 watts/channel stero amp. I consider myself a medium videophile now and an audiophile way back when I was a teenage (built my own amps from scratch).
I looked for 2 years to find a DVD player like the 3800 that did both video and analog audio superbly while at the same time costing a bit less than the Camelot. My hardest problem was locating a DVD player that weighed more than it's power cord, but the 3800 is it (~20lbs). The Denon 9000 is even better at ~40 lbs -> better BB A-DAC's (1704's) than the 3800 (1738's) and 14-bit, 108MHz V-DAC's (the 3800 has 12-bit, 108MHz V-DAC's). My Sony VCR even weighs around 15-16 pounds and produces zero jitter images from it's rock solid mechanism.
The 3800's analog audio sounds best when you keep the digital audio section and it's front panel lighting turned OFF for movies, CD's and DVD-A's.
I'll take machined weight any day over feather weight - if for no other reason than the PC boards may be thicker and the slide out drawer just might be machined metal instead of Walmart plastic.
OEM's have got everyone fooled that digital let's them off the hook to build electroninc stuff to last. They love to churn the market and keep us buying their plastic junk over and over. You can't solve every problem with a microscopic weight SOIC integrated circuit. Sometimes a mechanical engineer can add something of value, even in a supposedly "digital" world.

 

[John Kotches]

Phil,

How can you keep the digital audio section turned off?

You have to uncompress MLP (a DSP operation), and perform bass management (a DSP operation), then do a D/A Conversion (a digital operation)?

Perhaps I am misreading your post.


Regards,

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Know what I'd like to see? A universal player from Denon...

 

[Mark Davenport]

I think in audio it is simply realy bad to generalize equipment. In the end a Heavy piece of equipment does not always mean better sound than a lighter piece of equipment.
I see that a lot from some of the audio crowd, it's very difficult to honstly say everything is this way or everything is that way you really have to do a case by case situation for most thing in audio.

 

[John-Miles]

Phil, I am a mechanical engineer (ok well im soon graduating, but close enough) and I can most certainly tell you that a mechanical engineer is more concerned with weight than and electrical engineer ever would be. And unfortunately it is a common misconception that Plastic is worse than metal. True your average plastic is a lot less durable than your average metal, but there are numerous factors that come into play. Like Ian said regarding vibrations you just want to avoid normal vibrations, you aren’t concerned with the situation of someone trying to listen to a disc during an earth quake or while doing some light jack-hammering. And the same pretty much holds true for durability. I have taken numerous courses on solid mechanics and material which deal specifically with durability and strength of varied materials. And the bottom line is simple. Sure I can go out and make a player that sits in a cube suspended from numerous pulleys and springs with a 4 inch thick titanium case which could probably keep playing if you dropped a bomb on it. But how often are bombs going to be dropped on peoples players, and still have people there expecting to hear their music. And this is where a big part of engineering comes in. You can for a whole lot less money design a player made of mostly plastic which will travel perfectly well when packaged and sitting in a shell in your home theater will have absolutely no problems, especially when not abused. Sure such a player may wear out because of its plastic parts after 5-8 years, but you know what, if the only difference between two players were plastic vs metal you can bet on the fact that in 5 or even 8 years you could take the money you saved by buying the cheaper plastic model and go out and replace your now broken player with a better one. Sure it may not be top of the line, but it would definitely be better than the player you replace. And I would be surprised if your more expensive player lasted you as long as two plastic players, and 5 or 8 years in when you replace the plastic player you will then have one which is superior in features and sound/video quality than your old metal player.

All this being said I am by no means saying plastic is superior to metal, but I am saying that when properly engineered plastic will be much better value for your money.... Don’t come crying to me if a 50 dollar DVD player falls apart after 5 months you really should expect that.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

If you're talking about a pure audio device producing digital audio output, though, you reach diminishing returns fairly quickly. One concern often voiced on audio forums is about "jitter" (irregular rates of sending the samples on the digital output). But, well, jitter is the sort of issue that you only worry about when you run out of significant problems to worry about. Any good quality (and by good quality I mean several hundred dollars, not many thousands of dollars) digital audio source is not going to suffer from significant jitter. By significant I mean, enough to be measurable once it goes through the clock-recovery circuits in the receiver, which will naturally smooth out low levels of jitter.

Ian,
I must contribute here as someone who has studied jitter based effects with Bob Katz, a respected digital audio expert.
We looked at jitter measured in picoseconds and found a couple of interesting things while working with Chesky Records in the 90s.
1. Jitter differences seem to decrease as CD player quality improves in terms of transport weight and vibration control. The new Sony SACD players are very low as are those involving "clamping devices".
2. Those CD players with standard "off the shelf" transports have very high levels of jitter. My guess is you need to reach $1K to get good results with today' "trickle down" high end audio.
3. Jitter in low picosecond amounts is audible. We set up some blind tests where my Chesky engineer friends and I picked out jittery components frequently.
4. Reclocking the signal can also introduce jitter effects, as explained by Bob.
Jitter is an extremely important effect in an audiophile environment and elsewhere. I think we should be careful about saying that it affects just the very high end components. The good news is that transport technology has advanced dramatically.

 

[Francois Plouffe]

I love/hate those debate. I reed so many over the years and they all end the same way. Someone just whisper the word "jitter" and ...
Note that I am not an engineer and I have not conducted any research on the subject. I am just an ordinary person that try to have/form an opinion. There is so many "experts" on both side that it is hard to get a definitive answer.
All of the following is my opinion that I write just for the fun of it.
I have a hard time believing that mechanical vibration can produce the so call jitter. I don't beleive that manufacturer didn't came up with a solution; just buffering the bits before sending them down the chain would, I think, be enough to stop this "problem". It is done in the cheap portable CD player as an anti skip solution.
Then, if jitter occurs again, it would be a product of the electronic circuit, not the mechanical device. May be it would be cause by fluctuation of weak power supply and yes, a better (heavier ) power supply could help here, who knows.
So if you plan on using a DVD player only with digital audio output, why pay for Burr Brown DAC or else? I, for one, was not able to make a difference between my old Pionner Elite PD65, big buck/heavy CD player and my old Panasonic DVD A100 using only digital output. The drive of the PD65 was really well rated and even used by EAD on a $$$ CD player.
As for the video side, computer graphic cards have video DAC that can output much higher resolution and refresh rate for years (many years); it must be a very cheap and old technologie by now, so why a tabletop DVD player that only output 480P 60 frames second should cost an arm an a leg because it's video DAC is SO much better than a "ordinary" player? Is the power from the power supply have such an impact on the outputed signal? Considering the quality of a high rez image from a computer versus their cheap power supply, I draw my own conclusion here...
Maybe manufacturer put very crappy chip on purpose in low end DVD player just to make there $$$ DVD player look better...
Thing is manufacturer knows very well that some people are willing to pay big buck for a piece of equipment because they don't like when it no heavy enough. So they sell low profit margin player and sell high profit margin player, probably based for the most part on theire cheapest brother, with just enough differentiation so we can't accused them of just do costly face lift of there cheap player. Japanese manufacturer have very well mastered this art.
Of course, like many, I would prefer a machined tray over a plastic one, just for the feel and durability. I would love to see more people say just that than it's better because it's all metal and heavy.
Just food for though, feel free to disagree.
Have a nice day.

 

[Phil Nichols]

John K.,

"How can you keep the digital audio section turned off?"

I use my 3800 DVD player all the time in one of it's "Pure Direct" modes, each of which you can program to turn off various circuit sections inside the player. I programmed one of the PD modes to have the digital audio output OFF for watching DVD movies with my analog stereo sound system. (I actually have 3-channels ....... the center being a mix of the two coming from the 3800's analog L/R outputs.)

 

[Martin Rendall]

Phil,
I think that if you turn whole sections of your player off, then you have to remove the weight of those components from the final operating weight of the player. It's only fair!
Martin.

 

[Phil Nichols]

John-Miles,
I used "plastic" as a catch-all phrase for lightness. Conversely, heaviness does not just mean "metal support brackets or cabinetry".
Heaviness in a DVD player means to me such things as:
1) A better transport with perhaps beefier bearings for the spindle....or at least I would prefer a better drive in a $1K DVD player than the average home computer drive you pay $69 for.
2) Thicker PC boards so maybe they don't warp with heat and open up, or create intermittent, solder joints sometime in the future. (Don't forget that DVD players run warm.)
3) Beefier connectors on the back panel so you can plug-in/unplug cables forever without change in connection reliability or impedance.
4) "Thick" Mu-metal and/or copper shielding isolating all digital and analog (sound and video) sections. (Remember that the post-VDAC video section of *nearly* all DVD players
is analog - NOT digital.)
5) Maybe a "real" power supply inside - translate as 'transformers' - instead of all those switching IC chip power supplies throwing their switching transients around everywhere.
6) And last but not least I concede - a thick brushed aluminum front panel to help your images look better through implementation of a strong plac-ego affect!
Take this all in fun ......... HT - the ultimate hobby!

 

[Phil Nichols]

Martin,

".....then you have to remove the weight of those components......"

I'd never do that - can you imagine how much flack you guys would give me for completely eliminating my capability for 5.1 DTS - which I'll probably have to employ someday due to either peer pressure or failure of my old Sony analog stereo amp?! :b

 

[John Kotches]

Phil,
That's why I asked you to clarify. You said turn off the digital section of the player, which didn't make much sense
Regards,

 

[Jason Wilcox]

i keep thinkin of snatch when i read this thread

boris the blade: weight is a sign of reliability