Way too many words about...Demeyere stainless steel cookware (1 Viewer)

[Carlo_M]

TL;DR (or as the old fogies referred to it, the Cliff's Notes version)
I am super impressed with the craftsmanship, quality and cooking results of the Demeyere Atlantis/Proline/Silver7 cookware. Many high-end cookware reviewers claim it's a superior line to All Clad's D3/D5 lines, which is considered the industry standard and used in professional kitchens and by well-known chefs around the world. After using them, I can understand why some make that claim. It's not a criticism of All Clad (which is stellar). It's a testament to how incredible Demeyere is.

TIL
The surviving family members (who are still operating the company despite it being purchased by Zwilling, along with other brands like Staub) pronounce the name deh-meyer-uh (with the "uh" being a little rolled off, but most definitely audible), not deh-meyer. And the "meyer" part is pronounced like Oscar Meyer.

Background
With apologies for the trademark infringement of our dear friend and resident film expert/historian/restorer/all around great guy Mr. Robert A. Harris, I present my inaugural "way too many words about cookware" series (reflecting my penchant for lengthy, in-depth posts). There's actually a previous, true first post to this series, but I can't go back and change the title of that thread to make it the true first post about cookware. That one started off as a testimony to my foray into heirloom quality cast iron pieces (in an effort to eliminate nonstick cookware from my kitchen) and as Tolkien would say "the tale grew in the telling" that it started to include additional cookware type purchases I made such as enameled cast iron (Le Creuset, and a just-purchased Staub) and Demeyere. Initially I thought I'd keep it all in that thread, but as I've used each of these Demeyere pieces over the last several weeks and months, I have been so impressed with them.

Why did I purchase stainless steel (SS) cookware, when I have a nice assortment of Smithey cast iron and Le Creuset/Staub enameled cast iron pieces?
I wanted to cover all of the bases. Cast iron is wonderful, in fact perhaps the best, at searing meats and getting the Maillard reaction. But you also need to be careful when using acidic sauces/ingredients as that can strip the seasoning, and if you want to deglaze and make fond from the bits left in the pan, often you are using wine, which is acidic. I also wanted cookware that was a little lighter than cast iron, as Smitheys, LCs and Staubs are all some of the weightiest pieces out there. Don't get me wrong, The Atlantis/Proline/Silver7 lines of Demeyere are probably the heaviest SS pieces out there, as the fully cladded pieces are 7-ply all the way to their sealed edges (and it's important to have sealed edges as All Clad just settled a $4M class action lawsuit where their unsealed edges could lead to corrosion of the aluminum layer under dishwasher use). Sealed edges means the interior plies are not exposed to water or outside elements and should never corrode or delaminate unless you damage the pan through trauma.

Atlantis, Proline, Silver7, Oh my! What's the difference?
Essentially what I've discovered is this: Demeyere's top of the line SS cookware is all 7-ply, and named Atlantis and it's sub-category Proline. Proline generally refers to the fry pans, and Atlantis refers to every other pan/pot in that lineup (saute pans, saucepans, sauciers, stock pots).

So what's the Silver7 line? It's the line Demeyere makes specifically for Sur la Table, which is functionally identical in terms of number of plies and manufacture of the "important" parts of the pots/pans, but with some slight differences which I'll highlight later, as I have both Atlantis/Proline and Silver7 pieces. Essentially the shape and angle (relative to the pot) of the handles vary a little bit, as well as the shape of the weld point from the handle. As to which is "better" is totally buyer-dependent (I'll give my opinion on this later). Also the Silver7 lids are double walled (and hence thicker but not necessarily too much heavier since there's air between the walls), which some might prefer. I'm still too novice of a cook to know whether the double walled lids are better/worse than standard lids, and honestly I do most of my SS cooking with the lid off.

The two types of Demeyere 7-ply

For their fry pans and sauciers (which are like sauce pans but have sloped walls, as opposed to squared off walls), Demeyere uses a 7-ply cladded manufacture, which means all 7 plies are present throughout the entirety of the pan/pot (but not the handle). The bottom 3 plies for both types are what they call "TriplInduc" (like the two words tripl(e) and Induc(tion) smashed together), which is a proprietary three alloys that they claim make it superior to use on induction stovetops. While I have, and prefer, gas ranges, I know at some point being a California resident and our state's desire to get away from burning fuel sources, I'll probably have to go to an Induction top at some point. The cooking layer is 18/10 stainless steel with Silvinox treatment. After many uses, I can attest that the claims made there seem to be bearing out in the real world.

The cooking layer and the base TriplInduc layer are where the similarities end.

For the fully cladded pieces, sandwiched between those two are 3 layers of aluminum (an aluminum alloy sandwiched between 2 layers of pure aluminum). The infographic below shows the layers, but the "three layers of aluminum totaling 2.2mm" on the 7 ply is incorrect, or rather only applies to the woks. The saucier's (referred to as conic saute in the link) aluminum layers are between 3-3.3mm thick, and the Proline fry pans are 4.8mm thick. This bears out as I used digital calipers and the fry pan overall wall thickness is 5.3mm and the saucier is 3.6mm, so the difference is accounted for in the aluminum layers.

For the bonded disc pieces (saute pans, stock pots, sauce pans with squared-off walls), the sides are simply thin stainless steel layers (with the Silvinox treatment) but the disc bottom is where the magic (aka heat retention and distribution) happens. The disc bottom for both my 2.3 qt sauce pan and 3.5qt saute pan are both 18mm. Sandwiched between the steel and TriplInduc are three layers, a 2mm copper (one of the best heat conductors) disc which is the same size as the pan/pot, sandwiched between two silver layers. The thinking behind this design is that for the type of cooking one does in sauce pans, saute pans and stock pots, even heat distribution at the bottom is where it's most important, not the side walls, and that the type of cooking done in those pots relies on the convection effect of the food inside the pot. Also, to fully clad those pieces would make the super heavy (heavier than enameled cast iron dutch ovens).

What do the seven plies get you?

• Excellent thermal retention, almost on par with cast iron.
• Excellent, and even, heat distribution. Google the boiling water test on Demeyere Atlantis pans. I did the "bring water to a boil" test and minute boiling bubbles were evenly distributed all over the bottom of the pan, no identifiable hot spots in this test, or in real-life cooking. I made a bunch of fried zucchini the other night and had about a dozen spread over the bottom of the saute pan. They all cooked at roughly the same time to the same evenness. I made sure to remember which order I put them in the pan so I turned them in the same order, and they were all nearly identical in terms of color and crispness.
• You don't have to use as much heat as you think. In fact, I rarely ever cook at medium now, usually more like medium-low.

Here's a marketing video from Demeyere, which the cynical eye would say "yep it's marketing" but I can attest that I've been able to validate their claims first-hand at home.


Other benefits of Atlantis/Proline/Silver7

• Rivetless cooking surface. I cannot stress how much I love this feature. I am pretty thorough in my care of cookware. Despite that, all of my older (now donated) SS pans had rivets that, despite my best efforts, showed signs of wear and tear around the rivet area.

Okay, nothing is all roses, what are the downsides?
For me, these are the ones I could identify (other people may identify more).

• Weight. There's no getting around it. Not as heavy as cast iron pieces of the same size and capacity. But between the lightweight, inexpensive stainless steel cookware out there and good cast iron pieces, it's closer to cast iron in weight than it is to your mass market produced SS. It's even considerably weightier than All Clad D3 line (I haven't had a chance to try out their D5 line). The saucier/sauce pan are small enough so that I don't mind it, but the fry pan is almost cast iron weight, and the 3.5qt saute pan definitely has a helper handle for a reason, it's not just there for decoration.
• Less quick to react to changes in heat than lighter pans. It is still significantly faster to heat up than cast iron, but compared to 3-ply SS, it takes a minute or so longer. And when you immediately lower or raise the heat it will take a little bit more time to reflect that change. So for example, I do the water drop test to know when to add the oil/fat (e.g. if the water droplet fizzles and evaporates in place it's too cold, if it splits into many tiny balls that roll around the pan it's too hot, and if it forms just one big mercury ball of water--perhaps with a couple of smaller balls but not too many--and that one ball rolls around the pan it's perfect). If I have let it preheat too much, reducing the heat takes a long time for it to get to the right temp. I literally have to take the pan off the flame for a bit to let the pan cool back down to the proper temp.
• If you use too much heat (see my above point about you don't need to use as much heat as you think) it's easy to have splatter spots of oil burn onto the stainless steel. Those little spots are impossible to get off with standard dish soap. But a cleaning pass with Bar Keeper's friend and a non-abrasive sponge gets your pieces looking like new again (which is why in the pics I'll post mine look almost unused). But the easiest way to avoid having to use BKF and elbow grease is to cook at the proper temperature for the pan.
• Price. The only commonly available pans I've found that routinely cost more are going to be the copper specialty brands (Mauviel, Falk) and copper lines of other brands like All Clad. Hestan Copperbond and Nanobond also come in at higher prices. But just like with Smithey, Le Creuset, etc. these are lifetime heirloom quality pieces. These will be in my will and will be appreciated by generations to come.

Pics or it didn't happen

From left to right: 3.5qt Silver7 saute pan, 2.25qt Silver7 sauce pan, 9.5" Silver7 skillet (aka fry pan), 2.1qt saucier (aka conic saute pan)


The Silver7 sauce pan on the left, Atlantis saucier on the right. Note the double walled lid on the left vs. the single walled lid. Not significantly heavier: 0.92 lbs vs. 0.78 lbs although the lighter one is a little bit wider in circumference. Also note the rectangular weld contact point on the Silver7 (they all have this style) vs. the more "aerodynamic" (can't think of a better word) weld point for the Atlantis. I doubt both will ever fail, but I do think there is more contact area in the Silver7 weld point, but I have to say my eye likes the look of the Atlantis weld point more. Also note the Atlantis handle is more upward sloping, which I think is a consistent difference between the S7 and Atlantis.


Note the shape difference in the lid handles. S7 has the rectangular/more angled style, while the Atlantis is more smooth and rounded (mirroring the differences in weld points).


Disc bonded on the left (17mm with thick copper layer) and fully cladded on the right. Note the severe thickness difference at the nicely sloped (and sealed!) pouring rims. Whenever I have to "pour one out" there is very little, if any, dribbling down the sides.


Fully clad thickness comparison: fry pan on the left at 5.3mm, saucier on the right at 3.6mm

Comments, thoughts and experiences are welcome!
If you are a stainless steel cookware fan, please post your pieces and thoughts on them! All Clad gets most of the name recognition in America, but internet direct companies like MadeIn are also making headway into the market space, claiming "All Clad" quality at lower prices. Hestan is trying to carve out a niche in the "more expensive than Demeyere" space (however small that market space is ) and of course I'd love to hear from those who own copper pieces. Outside of the added cost of copper, I'm also a bit wary of the added maintenance to keep/restore the shine on copper, which is why to this point I don't own any copper pieces.

If there's enough participation and interest in this, I may do a second (third?) post in the CDC (Carlo Does Cookware) series comparing my Le Creuset and Staub pieces. The funny thing is that the basting dots on the lids of Staub ovens are called "Aroma Rain" by Staub. That has to rank right up there with Apple's "Dynamic Island" for me as a great concept with a horrible name.

Wishing you all peace, happiness, and good food! Don't eat to live, but rather, live to eat!

 

[Kevin Hewell]

So, it works on induction eyes? At that price, I would hope they would.

 

[Carlo_M]

I mean most any cookware with flat bases made from metals with magnetic properties will work on induction. What they're boasting about with their "TriplInduc" is that they formulate the alloy to allow for "30% more efficiency" on induction tops (I assume in comparison to their leading competition).

As I said, I cook on gas so I have no way of testing those claims.

 

[DaveF]

Tri-ply is already quite heavy. 7-ply sounds super heavy!

I can imagine splurging one day on such a pan to play with. I’m more likely to get an affordable carbon steel sooner than that since I’ve already got “clad” cookware but don’t have “CS”.

I’m going induction whenever I get around to getting quotes from an electrician for the wiring work and can find a range that‘s available. I meant to do it this year, but this year has not gone as planned. Maybe in 2023. In the meantime, I’ve got a portable induction cooktop I‘ve been playing with the past couple years, to compare/contrast to more gas range.

 

[Carlo_M]

Maybe I'll post this in the Coupons and Bargains forum too, but for those interested in starting down your own personal "high end stainless steel cookware"...

Run, don't walk, to your local Macy's (or buy online). It may end up cheaper if you go to one in-person though (read on).

They just started their Friends and Family sale today, which in many (but not all) cases is an additional discount on top of existing discounts.

Guess what's included? All-Clad Stainless Steel cookware

I had a couple of use-case gaps in my stainless steel cookware series that I wanted to plug in with All-Clad over Demeyere, mostly for cost savings purposes while still maintaining a high quality (e.g. not a Walmart house brand). Here are some examples:

• A 10" fry pan that's a bit lighter than my Demeyere Proline (which weighs nearly 4 lbs) so that for recipes that call for tossing the food into the air (stir fry, fried rice, etc.) wouldn't be so straining on my wrist and arm. The All-Clad 10" D3 fry pan is 2.14 lbs.
  • Note: a second 10" fry pan never hurts, when you're cooking two main dishes simultaneously and want to bring them to the table at the same time.
• A fry pan that is less expensive than the Demeyere that I could put under the broiler at 550F and not mind if it discolors a little (stainless steel can discolor at temperatures above 500F). The A-C 10" also can fill this gap.
• A 2 qt. sauce pan (I have a 1.1 qt sauce pan and a 2.6 saucier already in the collection).
• A stockpot of 6 qt (or more) for larger pasta batches

The Macy's curated 7 piece All-Clad D3 set fit the bill but had one extra piece, a 3 qt sauté pan which kind of duplicates my 3.5 qt Demeyere sauté pan. However it had the 10" fry pan, a 2 qt saucepan, and a 6qt stock pot. If you bought each piece individually it would be $840. The curated set is on sale online for $550. Then take the 30% Friends and Family from that, for a total of $385+tax.

But depending on what your local store is doing, the deal can get better. I needed to get a new carry-on luggage so I went to look at the All-Clad section while I was at my local Macy's. What they had on the label was "All Clad Sets 40% off MSRP" in red, and then above it "30% off Friends and Family eligible". 40% off of $840 is actually $504 (so $46 cheaper than their online sale price). And yes, the F&F did count, so it further reduced it to $352.80 so by purchasing in-store I saved an additional $32.

An unanticipated bonus for me with regards to the sauté pan and stock pot: they are wider than my Demeyere pan, which are about 9.4" (24 cm) in diameter. A-Cs are a hair over 10" (26 cm). Why is that a bonus? Because when I cook spaghetti in the Demeyere, the noodles are just a little longer than the pan diameter (I think they're 25 cm). So whereas I used to slowly dunk one end of the batch of noodles into the water and let it start to get bendy, allowing for full submersion, I should be able to just drop the pasta noodles in all at once.

I've washed the pieces and am eager to start using them, in order to contrast and compare with Demeyere. I'll have to get over the rivets thing, but hey, c'est la vie. I already have observed one thing. In doing the "even-ness of heat distribution" test, I also did the Leidenfrost effect test, and because they're so much thinner than the Demeyere (and have less plies) they get up to temp much faster and also react to changing the burner much more quickly as well. For those cooking applications where rapid temperature changes are essential, this is a bonus, but when it comes to something like searing large proteins, this will not hold heat as well as the Demeyere, which is essentially on par with cast iron for heat retention IME.

 

[Carlo_M]

Early impressions after cooking 4 meals with the All Clad.

Heat Responsiveness
The D3 absolutely responds to heat changes faster than the Demeyere Proline/Atlantis, as is expected with thinner pans. For example when simmering, turning off the heat results in near instant cessation of the simmer while in the Demeyere it continues on for a little bit. Now in most recipes this won't matter, and in fact for multi-dish meals where things may not finish cooking at the same time, a thicker pan like the Demeyere is preferable for retaining heat if you have to leave your food in the pan while the other dishes finish cooking. But for other recipes that call for much more immediate temp changes or else ingredients start to break down or burn (I have yet to encounter this type of recipe in my repertoire but the internet tells me they exist) then the D3 is more responsive to heat changes.

The D3 also heats up faster. If you're doing things that require just fast heat-up (e.g. boiling water for pasta) and thermal retention isn't important (e.g. searing thick cuts of protein), then use the D3. Every time I need to boil spaghetti it will be the D3.

Interior finish staining and cleanup
The Silvinox treatment on the Demeyere definitely does something to better protect their stainless steel from staining. Having used the Demeyere for months now, I can say that the only stains I've had on it were burnt oil from the very beginning of my use of it when I had the gas on too high, and the occasional salt pitting from when I add salt to pasta water. If I only use Dawn to clean it, maybe after 3-4 uses the cooking surface will appear a little bit duller than when new, but if I do a quick scrub with a sponge and Barkeeper's Friend every 4th wash, it shines it up like new again. Ever since learning that I don't need to have the burner any higher than medium, often more like medium low, I've never had the burned oil issue again, so cleaning the Demeyere has been a breeze.

The D3 is more prone to salt pitting and dulling of the interior than the Demeyere. Whereas I can let the Demeyere just be dish soap washed 4 times or so before hitting it with BKF to restore the like-new look, I noticed the D3 getting dull, with light salt pitting after the first use of just cooking something in boiling water, and it had noticeable hard water-staining after making McGann 5 minute steel oats. A very quick pass with a sponge and BKF restored it, but again, with the Demeyere I don't see this until the 4th or 5th time I've used it and only cleaned it with Dawn, whereas this was every time with the All Clad. Now if you're the type of person whose philosophy is "cookware is a tool and should show signs of use, it adds to the character" then this won't bother you. If you're the type that likes to have your cookware, at least the nice pieces like All Clad, Demeyere, Le Creuset and Staub, retain their visual appeal, then this is where the Demeyere is much lower maintenance.

One weird thing happened with the D3 but it may be due to what I reheated in it. I used it to reheat a beef stew which had red wine in the broth. After cleaning it with Dawn, the bottom had a "rainbow" stain to it, like when it rains on your driveway and pulls up the oil and then when you look down at the puddle with oil in it you see rainbow type patterns? BKF removed it but I hadn't seen that happen on my Demeyere. Now to be fair, I haven't cooked a wine-based sauce in the Demeyere yet (I originally cooked the stew in the Staub) so maybe the same thing will happen there (could be due to the tannins or other things in the wine?). I usually finish my steaks in cast iron and deglaze with beef broth, but maybe next time I cook a steak I'll finish it in the Demeyere and use a red wine to deglaze and see if I get the rainbow staining.

Handles
The Demeyere handles are superior in shape and ergonomics, at least for my hands. I don't know who in All Clad thought their D3 handle shape was great, and maybe if I'd never handled Demeyere before I wouldn't care as much, but I definitely prefer the handle shape and feel of my Demeyere pieces over the All Clad. And I may not be alone because when I was looking at A-C's site for information on my D3, I see they have an updated D3 Everyday line which is not available in stores, only direct from them, where they say "you asked, we listened" and then list off a few things which differentiate the D3 Everyday from the normal D3 line. One of them? You guessed it: "comfortable, contoured handles". Those look more like Demeyere's shape.

They really should either sell that line in-stores, or just straight replace the D3 line handles with the Everyday shape moving forward.

Rivets
Too early to say much definitive. I haven't cooked anything that's brought food in contact with the rivets so cleaning's been a breeze. But let's be honest, for those of us who maintain clean cookware, the grunge around the rivets--which in my old cookware was likely less from food and more from wear and tear of the plating on the rivet due to years of scrubbing bits of food off of it--won't develop for years. So right now the hygienic aspect isn't an issue, we'll see in a few years. But it definitely makes me appreciate when I use the Demeyere pieces, having that easy to maintain, and visually appealing, rivetless surface.

 

[Carlo_M]

Here's an example of how easily D3 discolors. Demeyere takes several uses to get to this level, and even after 4-5 of just washing with Dawn, I don't know if Demeyere even gets this bad (I have never let it go more than 5 uses before using BKF--Barkeeper's Friend).

So this was my first use of the All-Clad 3.5 quart saute pan. I had previously cleaned it with Dawn and hot water and boiled Zero Water filtered water several times and cleaned with BKF and hot water, then Dawn and hot water afterwards to remove any surface remnants from factory (I recommend everyone clean all their stainless steel cookware deeply a few times before first use because there will be particles that are invisible to the eye left from the manufacturing process. All you have to do is put a dab of goo gone on a paper towel and wipe in one small space and look at the towel, it will have a slight gray stain to it, this has happened for all SS cookware I've purchased regardless of brand. Remember that often the last step is polishing and yes they likely do a wash but it's as effective as a $20 car wash. Gets it clean to the naked eye, but like to do "detailing" level clean before using it so that what they leave behind doesn't get in my food.

So again, this is after the first real use, and all I did was boil spaghetti noodles (using tap water which is admittedly hard) but I did not salt my water because my sauce had ample salt so I didn't want added salt in my noodles.


See the rainbow discoloring and slight pitting (despite not using salt, the tap water had minerals which caused it). And this was after sponge+Dawn and hot water, and then I tried sponge+baking soda and hot water). It looked identical before and after.


Next I tried spone+All-Clad's stainless cleaner and a little hot water to make a paste, and then scrub that around. All Clad's cleaner looks and feels like BKF but is less effective. You can see if you enlarge there's still considerable areas of water staining. This was after putting a decent amount of effort into the scrubbing.


And now after sponge+BKF+small amt of hot water to make a paste. Very little pressure on the sponge, just did several swirl passes around the bottom and inside walls of the pan, and it looks like new. So the lesson here is: BKF truly is your F(riend). But unlike Demeyere where I can use it after every few uses, it looks like for All Clad D3, if I want the "like new" look, I have to use it every time. Fortunately it's cheap. $5 canister of it has lasted me months even with regular cookware cleaning.

And for those who may think "oh the BKF worked so well because you did all of those other things first" - on my D3 fry pan which showed similar discoloring after lunch yesterday (these pics are from dinner), I went straight to BKF paste and light sponge swirls and it restored it like new on the first try. Sadly I did not take pictures of it as I wasn't expecting to post this after I found what I did after making pasta).

 

[Carlo_M]

A quick contrast and compare. For lunch I took last night's leftovers and "finished" my pasta (which, if you don't do this, try it, and you'll never not do it) in a Demeyere Atlantis 2.1qt saucier. This involved bringing the cold bolognese sauce up to a hard simmer (6 minutes over medium-low heat) and then mixed in the leftover spaghetti noodles (which caused the staining on the All-Clad in the previous post). Turn the heat up to medium and then mix/integrate the sauce into the noodles (3 minutes or so).

Quick wash of the pan in hot water to dislodge the remaining solid bits and then let it sit in the kitchen with water and Dawn soap. Ate lunch. When I was done, went to the sink, soft sponge and Dawn, and here is the outcome. Looks like it's still new. So while this wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison (I didn't boil pasta in the Demeyere but I did have an acidic tomato sauce in it for 10 minutes total), it's still a positive result:



Whatever that Silvinox process is, it truly does make it much more resistant to staining than All-Clad's (and all other SS) finish.