DVD-A & SACD Help (1 Viewer)

[Eric_Connelly]

Right, I have the 2000. I said they make a version of my center, not that I have that center

I had originally picked out the 2500 but we thought with the enclosure size that I might run into problems but now I'm starting to second guess that.

I was thinking of asking the retailer if they'd let me run the 2500 home real quick and see if it causes a problem.

I read some of the reviews on the ICBM and it all makes sense now...another $250 down the drain

I just don't understand how it works the Definitive's. Since my subs are built in to the fronts does my reciever still take the SUB OUT channel and send that via the LFE or does it send it out to the L&R and then let it do its own work with its internal cross overs?

 

[mylan]

Sorry, I didn't see that!:b I'm not sure the 2500 would give you the output you seek, but couldn't you just set the center to small and route LFE to the 7002's? Sorry I can't be of more help but I was interested in the Def Tech system for a while so i'll be interested to see how you work this out.

 

[Eric_Connelly]

My center is in an enclosure about 9" above the top of my 60" LCD and has about 3" of clearance between the top and the drywall the enclosure is built out of.

The worry was the top firing sub would cause the drywall to rattle. The salesguy sold me on the 2000 saying I would not need the 2500 considering the 7002's. Since the 2500 as a function of how it is setup can filter out its own bass it would be a simple fix to an overblown center channel.

I tried setting the speakers to small/large and all I get is a smaller sound stage and much prefer them set to large.

I posted a message in the ICBM forum on Outlaw's website. If I get the answer I am hoping to get I'll order one up. There are plenty of tracks I've listened to now where I can see the need for this unit. Beck's Sea Change sounds fantastic but Linkin Park gets too muddy and it sounds exactly like the situation this unit is meant to fix. Clear up the bass and send it to the right spot.

Hopefully this will work out. I'll post up the results as soon as I know.

As far as the Definitive's. I am incredibly happy with them. I used the YPAO setup on my Yamaha and now after reading some more of the ICBM reviews I need to get a tech sheet on each speaker and tune them a bit more. They do take a while to break in and I have only really one complaint.

They are hard to position for my room. Its 25x25x20 a the peak and sloping down on one side to 16'. As a stereo speaker set they fill the room with sound except for where I sit.

They sounded better everywhere else in the house except where I wanted them to sound good. It was too direct for my tastes, I wanted more of an ambient but loud sound. No doubt with proper placement and some work they would work in any room but I'm limited. Sounds silly in such a large room but its my biggest issue.

We were going to wait on the surrounds and center but I needed them to fix my problem. With the surrounds and the mutlichannel setup I get a fantastic sound throughout the room now with very few dead spots and it is a 100 percent improvement over when I just had the L&R.

I felt the need to punch up the low end a bit at lower volumes and create more clarity but this may also be helped by the ICBM if I understand what I read correctly.

I run into the same problem in DTS/DD mode but I can adjust that myself now that I know what to look for.

 

[mylan]

That was my concern with the center. Mine would have been housed in my ent. center below my 60" LCD with only 4" clearence so rattles would have been an issue.
As for the positioning,it sounds as if you have the placement problem with "powered towers" that I have heard others here talk about and the reason they went with monitors and a sub, which is that the best placement for the speakers is not the best placement for the subs.
Look for a member here named David Noll, who has a Def Tech set-up. He may be able to help.

 

[Eric_Connelly]

Yeah...but the reviews were so fantastic for the 7002's and I looked at the Mythos.

I like big sound and like it loud. I don't think its the 'fault' of the speakers, just a matter of adjustment.

I think its the bipolar part that makes them more problematic in placement. They are wild in some respects. My back wall will rattle, 20 feet away from the subs while the walls right next to the subs are silent...then vice versa.

There may be more compromises with them but from what several people have told me for the money they are hard to beat.

We listened to some monitor/sub combos from Energy and a few others and still not the same sound as the 7002's.

For the deal I got on them and their power I'll live with the tweaking they will take. Our HT room will be setup with these, or DT's bigger units in mind.

 

[mylan]

This has turned into a speaker forum thread but I like getting your take on the Def Techs. I looked into the towers but couldn't swing em so I got a pair of Def Tech Celcius bookshelves (they don't even make em anymore) a C1 center and BPX bipolar surrounds back in '98. I always thought my next rig would be at least a 7006 with a CLR 2000 center and the bigger bipolar surrounds.
You might try swaping the fronts out with the subs facing the other way to see if that will help smooth out the bass rattles on your wall but I wish I could help with your center problem,just like to chat about Def Techs I guess.

 

[Eric_Connelly]

I already swapped the speakers the first night I had them. They sound better firing at each other about 7 feet apart.

We originally listened to the 7006's...then the 7004's...well then there were the 7002's. We had a buddy who knew the owner of a dealer and got an excellent deal so it was tough to pass up.

 

[mylan]

Yeah I got a good deal on mine and a Velodyne HGS 10 sub back then. I needed a small sub for the W.A.F. and it worked great on wood floors but now have a dedicated H.T. on concrete slab and bass is lacking. Magnolia at Best Buy had some 7006's and that got me thinking about an upgrade.
Reading these forums has now gotten me thinking maybe its not the speakers that need an upgrade but the sub. Of course i've been leaning SVS since its all most people here talk about. For less than a new Def Tech rig, I could get a killer SVS and have change to spare. Decisions, decisions.....

 

[LanceJ]

Eric: as far as the hi-res signals are concerned, many hi-res players do NOT redirect the LFE channel to the front mains like they do with Dolby and DTS when their "subwoofer-no" option is chosen.*

And unless you're receiver can perform bass management on its multichannel input (many have this feature now), the LFE channel will get "lost".

So it *is* possible that your system may be missing a good chunk of the bass that is present on many of your surround discs (FYI: some titles don't use the LFE channel at all-this is why pretty much all surround mixers advise using five large speakers + a sub with no b.m. for music playback).

Being the wacky person I am, I started a thread on a similar subject:

A pro talks about bass management issues for surround *music* playback

the "pro" is an actual professional surround mixer

If you don't want to wade through all the discussion, make sure to skip down to my post concerning phase problems-or rather, the probable lack of them-for surround systems w/all set-to-large speakers in post #20.

* using a disc with a powerful LFE channel should tell you if your player does redirect this channel to your front mains. I did this with my Linkin Park dvd-audio using the Dolby track to see if my receiver did this for Dolby/DTS signals (by switching between the "sub-no" and "sub-yes" options and listening to/watching the woofers carefully) because someone here said some receivers didn't do this (even though Dolby and DTS require such an action to earn their license).

 

[Eric_Connelly]

Lance,

How did you get the Dolby track on the Linkin Park DVD?

I tried switching between inputs and I only get stereo on my unit when I switch to the direct. There is no option in the DVD player like on others to pick the DD track.

Either way I ordered my ICBM a few minutes ago to do the bass management.

My unit performs no bass management at all on the multichannel. Do you know of some models that do this? I'd be interested in investgating it further.

Just to clarify also I am running an LFE and I do have the subwoofer set to ON.

The Definitive's seem to confuse some people, including the guy from Outlaw I spoke with. When I have the LFE hooked up these speakers act just like a 5.1 system, except its 2 subs instead of 1.

I'll read through that and see what I get. I do feel that I'm not getting the strong bass I should with music unless I really crank it up then I run into the bass management problem with the centers and rear's.

I did try this. I played Forgotten on the Linkin Park DVD which has some pretty heavy bass.

I played the first 30 seconds which shakes the walls and is pretty clean but its not hard bass.

I turned the sub ON and OFF and played it back to back...same bass.

Now my speakers when they do not see an LFE they do their own internal cross over.

But again its not a real tight hard sound like I was expecting. Hopefully the ICBM will take care of this, it should strip out the bass from the 5 channels and shove it out the .1 channel for me taking care of this and tightening things up.

Don't get me wrong, it sounds good but not what I expected...it almost sounds a bit fluttery on the bass which is not what I would have expected from these speakers.

Alot of movies don't have audible bass and the subs do a fantastic job with that but its getting a specific LFE signal for those.

Thanks for everyones input, I'll be an expert by the end of the week

 

[Eric_Connelly]

Ok...I talked to Defintive.

I am getting a .1 signal from my unit playing Linking Park's DVD-A, also from Beck's Sea Change.

I unplugged the speakers and just used the LFE by itself and get bass.

Its not earth shattering but its there.

I tried playing a regular CD and get zero bass signal even set to Multichannel.

Then I tried Star Wars:ROTS on Multichannel I get no .1 signal. When I run it through the Receiver over optical set to STRAIGHT then I get a bass channel.

This is a DolbyD: EX which my DVD player must not decode so the ICBM is of no help here.

I tried Superbit Starship Troopers and get a .1 signal off of the DVD player and off of the reciever. This is in DTS. Dolby Digital gave me the same result although it sounded better coming off the Multichannel in.

Definitive told me when it see's an LFE it plays it via the sub. When it see's and LFE and Speaker it plays the LFE and its internal cross over runs at 80hz and sends that to the sub also but also plays above 80 on the main loud speaker.

I realize this may have gone beyond the music scope...so this might need to move. This subject seems to cross a few different area's.

Makin' my head hurt....

 

[mylan]

Sadly, this is why DVD-Audio and SACD are failing to catch on with the mainstream consumer, I may just go PLIIx.

 

[Eric_Connelly]

With anything its an education issue.

Most people are happy with the sound they get. I don't know if I have a good ear but I do have an expectation of what I should be able to hear from spending 5K on a setup.

On some DVD-A's I get that kind of sound but on rock/industrial I do not its too muttled and I figured there had to be a reason so I started to look into it.

If information like this was more easily available then it would catch on more.

The problem is, it is an obvious flaw in the design of DVD-A and SACD and you won't get the companies that came up with it to admit it.

So you have a problem as a result of the design that they tuck under the rug and that helps kill the format.

 

[mylan]

Worrying about their revenue stream rather than focusing on the quality and useabilty will kill anything. Consumer electronics makers know how to make products that work but are being told by the content owners what digital signal can or can't pass through what cable. A $6,000 Denon receiver couldn't even enable an i-link connector until the SACD committee said it could. THIS makes MY head hurt!

 

[Eric_Connelly]

I went back to the store today to find out how to do some basss management on the digital side.

The guy kind of gave me some idea's but then showed me the next model up which had ilink and would do bass management on the digital side of things.

I picked up a few more DVD-A's and War of the Worlds to try to tune up the digital side of things.

I get some improvements on the bass channel but still have a ways to go.

 

[LanceJ]

The multichannel sound that will result will be a mostly random collection of sounds placed rather hapharzardly around you. Sometimes it sounds good and sometimes it doesn't. And not all music has the correct sonics-certain phase effects mostly-to activate the DPL system in the first place so you may get nothing at all.

Also, the specifically-designed moving effects many surround discs feature that can add to the listening experience, like on Sea Change's "Golden Age" or especially the Linkin Park, Crystal Method discs and this one by trip-hop artist LTJ Bukem will be absent. :frowning:

IMO DPLII, DTS:Neo and Logic7 can sound very good but aren't 100% substitutes for a true multichannel recording created from the original master tapes/hard drive.

The only reason I wrote this post is because I've seen some people say that they don't like surroudn music because they heard one of these systems and thought all surround music sounded like that.

 

[Rachael B]

Eric, quit fussing with bass management. Add a sub that's dedicated to the centre channel and run it LARGE. That's the best solution IMO...

 

[Eric_Connelly]

Rachael,

I plan on making some changes to the system after having it at home for a week.

A bigger center will be coming this week, one with drivers to match the fronts.

BIG rears are going to be coming too, probably in a month or two but they are over 22" tall, gotta work with the wife on that one.

As far as adding a sub...well I went with the Definitives for their built in subs. How that works out I'll have to wait and see.

My ICBM did show up....but the cables did not :frowning:

Hopefully tommorow.

Just an update on my speaker problems though...I found out the unit was set to 6Ohm and not 8ohm as it should have been. The difference is fantastic.

more to come once I get it properly setup.

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

Eric, I hope you forgive me for helping you spend your money....:b

I should mention that I have a mid-fi setup myself: Philips 963SA transport, Yamaha HTR-5250, Polk RT55i mains, CS275 center, and RT3 rears, plus JBL PSW-1200. I couldn't get this to sound decent on Sack-Dee until I purchased that darned Outlaw box. I think the ICBM cost as much as my receiver .

In an effort to make amends...may I suggest this recording?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...005782-5439260 It's recorded directly in multichannel DSD and sounds spectacular.

 

[Eric_Connelly]

Dennis,

Thanks for the suggestion on the ICBM. I kind of bought it on the fly getting frustrated with the sound out of the units. The dealer I bought my stuff from gave me a decent discount on both the speakers which is somewhat normal but also a helluva discount on the hardware which is not normal. A guy from work knows the owner and set me up. The last thing I wanted to do is to take things back.

Once I fixed the impedance problem I heard a huge difference in digital audio. Analog audio was better but still not there however there was such an incredible difference I could hear what I needed to filter out with the ICBM.

Now that I've done even more reading alot of people with very high end systems seem to have one and they all speak very very well about it.

Last day of holiday vacation and still waiting for the FedEx guy to show up

I'll check out that CD too.

Thanks