Batman 3-4 Question..

Discussion in 'Movies' started by DeathStar1, Jul 4, 2006.

  1. DeathStar1

    DeathStar1 Producer

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    After seeing a link for Batman Begins, Se...a question pops up..

    Does Joel S. Take full credit, or give any reason why he wanted to go for a neon glow, sappy version of Batman? IF he did, does he blame it on the studios, or take full credit full ruining the Batman film franchise?

    Also, one of the things I like about the new Batman, is that you don't have to get grossed out while watching it.... i.e. Penguin tearing open a fish on screen...
     
  2. I haven't explored the new SE dvds yet, but the short answer is that it was a conscious decision on the studio's part to lighten things up. When Batman Returns didn't do as well as they'd hoped, the film was deemed too dark to appeal to families/kids.

    The truth is, this strategy worked out well for them. Batman Forever was a pretty big success upon release, both critically and commercially. You really can't blame them for rushing B&R into production, or for thinking that a similar approach wouldn't pay off.

    But while Forever may have been lighter, it still had a bit of depth to the story. I'm not sure who decided to throw that aspect out for B&R, but it's as though they suddenly decided their target audience was a bunch of 4-year-olds.

    I'm a bit curious to listen to Schumacher's commentary track for Batman and Robin, but apparently not enough to actually do it. I'm sure there are others who have, though, and can probably provide better details.
     
  3. paul_austin

    paul_austin Second Unit

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    like Mel Brooks said in the Producers.....make it gay, make it gay make it gay
     
  4. Malcolm R

    Malcolm R Executive Producer

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    It worked for "Brokeback Mountain". [​IMG]
     
  5. DavidPla

    DavidPla Cinematographer

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    The commentaries basically sum up that Schumacher definitely takes FULL credit for everything in "Batman Forever" AND "Batman & Robin". He says he was a bit rushed and WB pushed some of the toy potential but at the end of the day he called all the shots and is sorry to the Batfans that felt betrayed. He also goes on to mention that he is a big fan of "Batman Returns".
     
  6. CoreyII

    CoreyII Second Unit

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    I blame both Burton and Schumacher for the way the franchise was handled. Burton's film's are no better than Schumachers, they just have a different set of problems. Burton clearly doesn't get Batman anymore than Schumacher does. To this day I still think the casting of Michael Keaton as Batman was a bad choice.

    Like film critic Chris Gore said the demise of bad ass heroes (or the rise of wimpy heroes) could be traced back to the 1989 Batman film and the effects are still being felt today (e.g. Ben Affleck as Daredevil, Alan Cumming as Nightcrawler)
     
  7. Michael:M

    Michael:M Supporting Actor

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    Ben Affleck is over 6' tall, appeared to be in pretty good shape, and kicked some serious (if choreographed) ass in DD. Nightcrawler's character, in the movie,was never intended to be a killing machine. I think the biggest blame for the playing down the violent aspects of superheroes lies with the rating system and the studios' fears of releasing R-rated comic-based films. If they ever filmed a fairly faithful version of Miller's Dark Knight Returns, it would most definitely be an R-rated film, and that means fewer merchandising rights and revenues.
     
  8. CoreyII

    CoreyII Second Unit

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    Once again Michael, I disagree, but you're right about one thing Affleck is over 6ft tall, but that's all he is and nothing else. I'll admit the fight scenes in DD were better than the ones in the Batman films (and that includes Begins), but I wouldn't call those fight scenes worthy of Daredevil, I mean come on, the see-saw scene was just plain ridiculous.

    Michael:M, if you truly want to see what a real Daredevil vs. Bullseye/Daredevil vs. Kingpin fight should then look no further than a Hong Kong action film called SPL. The film stars Donnie Yen, Sammo Hung, and Jackie (Jing) Wu. The last 15 minutes of the film is what a Daredevil movie should be, hell Donnie Yen even uses a bully club to fight Jacky Wu before going on to his final confrontation with Sammo Hung who plays a very Kingpin like villain. The martial arts are well choreographed and brutal. And unlike Batman Begins, you can clearly understand what is going on in the fight sequences. And there is no ridiculous wire-fu like in Daredevil, and if there is I couldn't tell.
     
  9. MandyHan

    MandyHan Stunt Coordinator

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    I think Schumacher should get most of the blame. I still remember watching the HBO behind the scenes for Batman Forever and him talking about why he did this or did that and it was because of his vision to make it more of a comic book movie. I guess he just needed to wait for Sam Raimi to see how to do it right.
     
  10. Bob_S.

    Bob_S. Supporting Actor

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    I was never happy with Michael Keaton as Batman either but Batman I and II are still my favorite ones from the francise. I didn't like Val Kilmer as Bruce Wayne either and the 3rd and 4th installments were too much on the campy side. I hated all that neon glow crap.

    I think BB is overrated. I had high expectations after reading everyone's glowing reviews but only considered the movie ok. I have it on dvd but have only seen it once. For me, the biggest turn off was the batmobile. I hated the looks of it so much it took me right out of the movie. I don't remember seeing a batmobile like that in any of the comics.
     
  11. Ray H

    Ray H Producer

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    I didn't find the look of the Batmobile to be that jarring. To me, it just seemed more practical of a vehicle. It feels rougher, more realistic and I don't doubt for a second that it could do the things it did in the movie. I didn't have a problem with the other Batmobiles, but with the Schumacher films, they were starting to look way too pretty.
     
  12. BrettGallman

    BrettGallman Screenwriter

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    I've said it before that no one captured the essence of both Bruce Wayne and Batman until Christian Bale. I thought Keaton was a good Batman, but not so great as Bruce Wayne. Vice versa for Kilmer, and I didn't think Clooney was a good choice at all. Of course, the material in Batman & Robin might have influenced that opinion of mine.

    I will at least say that Burton's films at least tried to establish a decent look for Gotham City, and the universe in general. However, that spiraled out of control by the time Schumaker got his hands on it. Way too neon, as someone else put it. Nothing felt or looked like Batman in those last two films, in my opinon.
     
  13. Andy Sheets

    Andy Sheets Cinematographer

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    I agree with this. Something I had problems with in the Burton films was that the Batmobile looked great when it was sitting still but looked terrible in motion (come to think of it, the whole movie is kind of like that) - just way too long and as it moved it looked more like a bus than a high-performance vehicle.
     
  14. DeathStar1

    DeathStar1 Producer

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    Agreed... But after ha ving only watched the Batman SE extras so far....and in defense of the film makers...

    If memory serves, it was inches above the ground... so one wrong move, and boom..injured stunt man..If that thing went over a rock, who knows if it would have fliped over?

    Second, I think they said it only got up to 40 mph.
     
  15. Kevin Grey

    Kevin Grey Cinematographer

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    Heh, I remember thinking at the time that if the bad guys wanted to escape just run into a shopping mall with speed bumps.
     
  16. Colin Jacobson

    Colin Jacobson Producer

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    While he does take the blame in an overt way, he makes it clear that the suits pressured him to take the franchise down a particular path. This is much more the case with Robin than with Forever. I think the Forever commentary is dreadful, and since Schumacher seems proud of the movie, he doesn't take any "blame" - but he does grab lots of credit!

    As for Robin, here's what I thought when I reviewed the DVD:

    "Schumacher doesn’t come out and tell us he thinks the movie stinks, but he launches no defense as he acknowledges the attacks it received. He often lets us know that the studio wanted a “kid-friendly” film. He also gets into the financial obligations related to product placement and tells us how a desire for marketable toys influenced aspects of the production. Schumacher ultimately takes the blame for the flick’s problems, but he makes sure we know that a lot of elements were out of his hands."
     
  17. Cassy_w

    Cassy_w Second Unit

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    The Batmobile in the 89 film could hit 75 on a race track, but only 40 to 50 during actual filming.

    I just watched the 89 Batman on HBO in High Def and it was the first time I had watched it in many years. WHen the film came out I was a big fan, but now it seems slow as heck at times. The damned Prince music used for two sequences is horrible and so are those scenes.

    The film has sensational moments and the Tim Burton score is perfection, but clearly Burton was not ready to shoot an action laced film. My God, he has grown so much since the 89 Batman.

    BATMAN BEGINS is the clear winner to me. It really captures what BATMAN was all about and I am looking forward to the next film.
     
  18. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    i posted this in the other DC comics thread ,but no1 paid any heed.

    the best batman was the animated series. on DVD it's vol1-3, vol4 (starting with the episode Demon Within) "jumped the shark" so to speak.

    one of the reasons why it has been so successful is because the creators brought the "Detective" out of the DC comic storyline. notice superman/wonder woman/batman/etc. all have detective elements.

    hence, most of the episodes in TAS Vol1-3 and some of 4 retained a LOT of a mystery in the beginning of the 22min episode, then they proceed to unravel the mystery through the episode. Batman's special powers aren't his gadgets... but his smarts and it shows in TAS. THAT'S what i'd like to see. same goes for superman.

    the '89 version brought some of that... but not enough. there's still too much focus on the "mythos" itself. in TAS, the mythos is the background, but the focus is always on solving a mystery. that's why batman returns, forever, &robin and even batman begins failed miserably.

    as soon as you step away from the mystery/detective elements of the "DC" Comic hero, you step away from the architecture whereby the mythology can shine through. the mystery is the backbone where you can cull other story themes/motifs out of the characters.
     
  19. Ray H

    Ray H Producer

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    I was watching some of Batman & Robin today, and has anyone else noticed that Clooney's performance basically consists of him looking down and bobbling his head? I dare anyone to count the number of times he does it in the movie!
     
  20. DavidPla

    DavidPla Cinematographer

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    OH MAN, yes! And not just as Bruce Wayne but as Batman as well. He didn't even do a different voice for either of them.

    Val Kilmer also lets slip a bit of lisp for "Tell me doctor, do you like thircuth."
     

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